Churches tithing to International Offices

[darylscook]

I got my F&S report today. And I was reading and noticed that they shared that Our solution is not a change in our Financial System, but rather just participation.

Two numbers stood out as I read it:
Only 67% of Pastors are tithing to N/R/S offices
Only 57% of churches are consistently tithing to International Offices.

Wow! No wonder we are having money problems. My church is growing and we are starting a building project and really need all of funding we can get. And, it does hurt to send off 10% of tithes to International Offices. But, we do it! We do it because we are a part of this fellowship!

We believe in personal tithing and while I don't see local church tithing to IO as a Biblical mandate, It is a good model and see using the concept for organizational funding as practical!

If everyone just participated, more than enough funding would be available at S/R headquarters and International Offices.

Pastor Daryl

[scooter]

Hard to understand.

[Pastor Gary]

Hard to understand.

It's complicated, and not nearly as black & white as a spreadsheet makes it appear. A lot of our "churches" are "preaching points" and not the clearly delineated organizations you might picture when you say "church."

The stats make no differentiation between a fully functioning congregation with a real pastor and facility and some of the other less traditional permutations included in the survey.

I have one "local church" that is at the present moment nothing but a single member who feeds homeless people in the park. I could disband it, but I have not felt that was the right thing to do. So it is a COGOP "church" at present, with no income, no pastor, and no tithes to anyone. Just one example of how that percentage statistic is not the entire picture.

There are also churches a millimeter away from losing properties, etc. who have temporarily opted out of the system for survival.

[PastorP]

Hard to understand.

There are also churches a millimeter away from losing properties, etc. who have temporarily opted out of the system for survival.

PG, you are so correct in your observation. The situation that you wrote about is so real in many local churches. Over the past many years, local churches have given beyond their means, and have enjoyed God's blessings for their giving. Never let us throw the baby out with the bath water by being judgmental of these same churches that are having difficulties during the trying years of a broken economy. Again PG, thank you for you gracious comments.

[pastorables]

There are also churches a millimeter away from losing properties, etc. who have temporarily opted out of the system for survival.

Ding, ding, ding. I would venture to say that the statistic is skewed due to a large percentage of struggling churches who would gladly participate if able.

[darylscook]

It's complicated, and not nearly as black & white as a spreadsheet makes it appear. A lot of our "churches" are "preaching points" and not the clearly delineated organizations you might picture when you say "church."

The stats make no differentiation between a fully functioning congregation with a real pastor and facility and some of the other less traditional permutations included in the survey.

I figured as much, but the large percentage is staggering.

I have one "local church" that is at the present moment nothing but a single member who feeds homeless people in the park. I could disband it, but I have not felt that was the right thing to do. So it is a COGOP "church" at present, with no income, no pastor, and no tithes to anyone. Just one example of how that percentage statistic is not the entire picture.

There are also churches a millimeter away from losing properties, etc. who have temporarily opted out of the system for survival.

I can understand that and I figured there was a small % of churches like that. I know of a church a few years ago that wrote and received permission from Hqrts to retain the 10% for mortgage needs.

BUT, the report gives the impression that there are a good number of churches that have simply chose to not support our present financial system and uses those numbers to back it up. Either they are using the statistics to mislead us, or a majority of the 43% of churches not participating have just chosen not too. And, that is disappointing to me. I haven't agreed with everything, but I support COGOP.

[justsam]

True story. Several years ago when I was pastoring the COGOP in New Albany, one of the first changes I made was instructing our treasurer to pay our tithes to the GH and I (as I always had) paid my tithes faithfully to the RO. We chose a Harvest Partner and gave our second Sunday offering to our partner. Etc. Etc. The church had serious financial problems. The building itself was foreclosed on twice, and thank God for his provision and the assistance of the region and some members with vision for our ministry.

The church also had a mortgage on an adjacent property, and the treasurer and I agreed that we simply couldn't afford to keep the property and stopped making payments. The bank foreclosed and filed suit against our church and GH. GH lawyer contacted us to make sure we were cooperating with GH in lawsuit. The next thing I knew, GH was separating itself from the local church in the lawsuit with the justification that since the former pastor had encumbered the church without following the correct procedure, therefore GH was not responsible for the local church's debt.

I reached out to GH NUMEROUS times for guidance in the year leading up to the lawsuit and received absolutely no response. When the lawsuit was filed I reached out AGAIN NUMEROUS times to the NA presbyter to at least try to explain what was going on. I heard from GH lawyer. I heard from the bank. I heard from our RO. But I couldn't get so much as a phone call or a letter before, during or after the loss of property from our GH or NA presbyter or any help from either. We were told, as directly as possible that our problems were our problems, not HQ's.

Try not sending in your tithes or your church's tithes. You'll get phone calls and letters and emails. But try to get a phone call or letter or email when you need help, and you'll figure out right away why a lot of churches and ministers don't tithe.

We were able to find a buyer for a short sale in order to get the church out of the lawsuit. Absolutely NO THANKS to the COGOP.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

[dawgs10]

Is in a multi million dollar building project and has 4 people on payroll as well as a vibrant outreach ministry that requires money to support it. saying all of that we have always sent our money to IO. It can be done. I do understand where others are coming from and the survival of the local church should be the most important thing...

[paul]

oK, first let me say, I am coimg from outside looking back in. When I left cogop the division of funds was much greater than curently from what I understand from the posting here.

As an Organization with several churches in fellowship with us our appraoch has always been that tithing to us as a parent organization is voluntary. A few years ago one of our Pastors called and told me of the struggle their church was going through. I told them not to worry about the tithe and use it to help meet the needs of the loca church. As a parent organization we in turn sent them funds to help them through the crisis. About a year later they resumed tithing and now tithe more than ever.

It really goes back to the relationship that the organization has with the local churches and the pastors.

I recall Steven Covey's seminar on Habits of Highly Effective People. The premis is that people ( churches) are like bank accounts. You can only draw out what you have put in. If a parent organization puts into the local churches both in relationship and resourses then they will never have a problem drawing out.

[Full Quiver]

Pastor Gary, of the example that you gave of the single member "church" I ask the following. Does that single member tithe to said "church". If so then why are the proper amounts of that "fund" not disbursed to HQ?

I have no dog in the fight but it appears that the one member church isn't collecting any tithes if they aren't dispersing any.

[Pastor Gary]

Pastor Gary, of the example that you gave of the single member "church" I ask the following. Does that single member tithe to said "church". If so then why are the proper amounts of that "fund" not disbursed to HQ?

I have no dog in the fight but it appears that the one member church isn't collecting any tithes if they aren't dispersing any.

If -- by tithe -- you mean putting an envelope into a plate with 10% of her income, no. If you mean giving far, far more than 10% to operating a feed-the-homeless out of her own pocket ministry, yes.

Am I going to try to skim off a percentage of that to satisfy some obligatory (but not Biblically mandated) "church tithe"? Nope.

[Full Quiver]

Don't get me wrong Pastor Gary, I do not believe tithing is a Christian mandate. It was a Jewish mandate for sure but I believe that Christians are to give cheerfully and that if we sow sparingly we will also reap sparingly.

I glean that you provided to this discussion a "church" that receives no tithes therefore obviously doesn't pay any tithes to HQ. Is this the norm? Are there many congregations out there that do not receive tithes and therefore do not pass tithes along?

[Pastor Gary]

Are there many congregations out there that do not receive tithes and therefore do not pass tithes along?

I lack the knowledge to answer that; I can only speak of the are over which I am responsible.

[rjjunior]

I'm just a bit confused. If the statistics aren't indicative of the actual situation on the ground, then the suggestion that the solution to our Current Financial System is simply "full participation" isn't accurate.

bummer.

[Faith rider]

If I read the report correctly, nothing is going to change.