Paul's thorn in the Flesh

[beckrl]

I've heared that the thorn in the flesh was his poor eye sight given the reason for the large letters (Gal.6:11) and his infirmity of the flesh, that if they could they would have plucked out their own eyes and given to him. (Gal.4:13-15). Then I have also heared that it maybe the "Judaizers" that the very ones with whom he once sided became the ones that were a continual "thorn in his side" whether they were Orthodox Jews or those who had converted and believed in Christ.

But lets read what is written:

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (New International Version)
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (New American Standard Bible)
7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (Amplified Bible)
7And to keep me from being puffed up and too much elated by the exceeding greatness (preeminence) of these revelations, there was given me a thorn (a splinter) in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to rack and buffet and harass me, to keep me from being excessively exalted. 8Three times I called upon the Lord and besought [Him] about this and begged that it might depart from me; 9But He said to me, My grace (My favor and loving-kindness and mercy) is enough for you [sufficient against any danger and enables you to bear the trouble manfully]; for My strength and power are made perfect (fulfilled and completed) and show themselves most effective in [your] weakness. Therefore, I will all the more gladly glory in my weaknesses and infirmities, that the strength and power of Christ (the Messiah) may rest (yes, may pitch a tent over and dwell) upon me! 10So for the sake of Christ, I am well pleased and take pleasure in infirmities, insults, hardships, persecutions, perplexities and distresses; for when I am weak [in human strength], then am I [truly] strong (able, powerful in divine strength).

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (King James Version)
7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul writing with large letters could mean it was merely a long letter. The puffy and distorted eyes could mean he was beaten and left for dead prior to preaching, so he would naturally appear to have some sort of "condition" on his face or eyes. Look at what boxing does to each fighter. Their faces are mutilated, similar to some diseases that distort facial features.

What then does scripture tell us?

[RamboPreacher]

i do not believe it was bad eye sight. a messanger from satan to come against him. anggelos is usualy translated as angel depending on context. in this case a historical approach leans me to a direction that there was a hesitancy to refer to demons as "angels". even with specified from satan.

scripture tells us what it is - an anggellos from satan with intent on torturing/comming againsst constantly, being adversarial to Paul. this leads me to believe that is not about a physical malady (though could be). but rather a person or persons that he has to constandtly fight against. we see this in most of his epistles that he has to fight against those heretical teachers a lot. he even uses sarcasm when dealing with the Galations 5 (IIRC) that their knife would slip and they castrate themselves.

my shortened version of 2 cents. my one cent? hehehehe

[rough_rider]

I don't believe it was bad eye sight either, I believe it to be the false apostles in Corinth.

[oletimer]

I had one guy to tell me that it was the fact that he persecuted the Church and concented to the murder of so many christians. Now I read where Rambo and others trys to bring some theological thought and I just don't believe they swing

Paul was beaten, jail, confronted, threaten. stoned and left for dead, yet he never lost hope or was discouarged. His zeal was sharpen and he seemed strenghten by the opposition. In Galatains we read about he called it an "infirmity of the flesh", also he was confident they would if possible that they "would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me".

Ga 4:13
Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
Ga 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Ga 4:15
Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

If you've never had eye problems then it will be hard to understand how hard it is to function. I wear bifolds and when they get scratched hazed over then it is hard to see and he didn't have a eye doctor to go to. I believe that it was indeed a thorn in the flesh.

2Co 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

As for Galatains 6 for Paul to write any at all was a big thing for him as we find that most were dictated. In Ephesians notice in chapter one verse one and then in 6:24 you will see what I'm talking about.
Eph 1:1
¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 6:24
Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. To the Ephesians written from Rome, by Tychicus.

No I don't believe that there was some strange thing special for Paul only happen as I do that the infirmity of his flesh (his eyes).

I'm not going to be cheap like Rambo I'm going for a dollor's worth. Haha

[beckrl]

Here's the point I think scripture reveals to us. His thorn in his flesh is because of the revelations given to him by God, so his thorn is of the flesh that he would not think highly of himself. Every where Paul went he came up against those that would have killed him, given him much persecution and physcial hardships.

So as the scriptures says that "Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses,[physical] so that Christ's power may rest on me.[revelations] 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. "

The thorn that Paul carry is physcial hardship (ie flesh). So all of these things that come upon Paul was his thorn. Was it his poor eye sight? Well, maybe because of him being beaten but ALL of those things that he suffered in the flesh was his thorn. All to keep him humble.

As we can see Paul's revelations of God and his kingdom surpass some of the Apostles.

[RamboPreacher]

OT - hahahha
so while your 151 word post (sans the cut/pasting from scripture) is longer than my 128 word count post, you really think your opinion is worth an intarwebs dollar?

I have been brought up believing that the thorn in the flesh was his bad eyesight. BTDT. I have seen the scriptures and they are usually listed as you did, in a paragraph fashion to weave them together.

In fact, I do not deny that he may have had bad eyes. but the thorn in the flesh in that particular verse has context and to ignore that context, in my opinion, is to presume an eisegetical understanding and ignore the exegesis.

Judas did away with himself and another scripture says that Jesus says that we are to go and do likewise. we surely don't concatenate those points. (I hope).

[oletimer]

Beckrl Here is the problem, those I don’t disagree with you about it being physical (I still believe that it was his eyes) Paul was not along in the hardship that he suffered. Many of the workers of that time also suffered too. Barnabas many times took the same beatings as did Paul, and they were not along. To say that Paul problem (eyes) was the results of all of those beatings could be, maybe diabetes, I don’t know, but from where I sit I think that was his problem.


BTW Beckrl the Amplified Bible is one of the most problematic versions (as Rambo might say; Eisegesis), it shorten some and leaves out other verses all together and doing so will leave out parts of the messages of God.

[oletimer]

so while your 151 word post (sans the cut/pasting from scripture) is longer than my 128 word count post, you really think your opinion is worth an intarwebs dollar?

Rambo I never thought of counting how many words it takes to get said what you have to say. This must be sooo important to you to know the numbers of words, just not my style. If you to put value on what is said then I would pay a lot more for what I have to say then what you have to say. But then you already know what I’m talking about and NO need bring it up again let the dead horse stay down.

In fact, I do not deny that he may have had bad eyes. but the thorn in the flesh in that particular verse has context and to ignore that context, in my opinion, is to presume an eisegetical understanding and ignore the exegesis.

The messenger of Satan. Among the Hebrews it was customary to attribute severe and painful diseases to Satan. (Albert Barnes)

You are right it is wrong to ignore context and I think that you are doing it. While I was willing to accept opinions from different ones and yet disagree, and even do it in fun, you seem fit to try to put me down. I have all ways tried to “rightly divide” the Word of God. That means to stay in context. I have read a lot of you writings over the years and am convinced that you “Eisegesis” and is good at it, but that my opinion and I will stand on it.
Another cut and paste
Eisegesis (from Greek εἰς "into" and ending from exegesis from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one's own ideas, reading into the text.

Judas did away with himself and another scripture says that Jesus says that we are to go and do likewise. we surely don't concatenate those points. (I hope).

You would think that you wouldn’t but you do and then use words that a lot of the readers have no ideal what they mean, but I’m not impressed. One thing that I have learned is to try to use languge that the people understand, but then in some cases it is good that they don’t.

Well I could go on and you will most likely will.
.

[darylscook]

It was his wife, and her name was Rose




Pastor Daryl

[MacUser]

It was his wife, and her name was Rose

Hilarious!

[RamboPreacher]

OT - gonna disagree, my friend (thanks for the discussion, BTW).
first, I was trying to interject some humor with the number thang. it is an OCD thing, partially, but the main part is that when talking about these, I had tended to make really long "book posts", that nobody actually reads. so my post was brief, and thus short, and so the two/one cent remark. haha

the second point I am not sure what you were making. "reading into" or "bringing out" of was exactly what I was saying. when using a scripture verse from various locations as if they are all about the same point (with no other context) is reading into. I was taking the one set of verses referencing the thorn, and pulling from it.

the third point, again I am confused. these are words that have been used on these forums for years. and concisely express a particular point without having to describe them with many words (see my first point about being brief).

and I don't see how I am doing this, as I used just the one scripture reference and used original language exegesis and context based on that epistle and reference.

my "bad example" was very specifically using references from two different authors, and two different "books" and two different contexts within those books. I am not sure how that can be perceived as what I did with my reference of what the thorn is when it says what it is.

so, i agree to disagree.

[beckrl]

Beckrl Here is the problem, those I don’t disagree with you about it being physical (I still believe that it was his eyes) Paul was not along in the hardship that he suffered. Many of the workers of that time also suffered too. Barnabas many times took the same beatings as did Paul, and they were not along. To say that Paul problem (eyes) was the results of all of those beatings could be, maybe diabetes, I don’t know, but from where I sit I think that was his problem.

You bring out a good point, again I think the meaning behind "thorn in the flesh" would consist of all the hardships that Paul endured. To keep himself abase to have no thought of as anything else, but a messager from God. It may also reflex back on his persecution of the christains before his encounter on the road. That in turn was what he was to bear
as what was onces what he as a messenger of Satan to the early christans was. This thorn was to prevent him from exalting himself above measure. Would the loss of eye sight do that? I tend to think it's more that the loss of one's eye sight, to me it's all that he endured that keep in abase.

Paul said, "for my strength is made perfect in weakness" that can be what he meant by Romans 5:3 "knowing that tribulation worketh patience;"

BTW Beckrl the Amplified Bible is one of the most problematic versions (as Rambo might say; Eisegesis), it shorten some and leaves out other verses all together and doing so will leave out parts of the messages of God.

That's why I used multi-translations, I'm not a big fun of the Amplified nor the Message, but wanted to give more that one translation.