Hey scholars

[Pastor Gary]

I stumbled upon a phrase I had never noticed before and it made me go hmmmmmm...

Isaiah 56
4 For this is what the LORD says:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-

5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.

That's from the NIV, but it's about the same idea in other versions.

Based upon your understanding of this passage, what does this say about transsexuals finding the Lord and serving Him? How would that work out in your local church context?

[Poimen]

What's the phrase that jumped out at ya here?

[Pastor Gary]

Verses 4 & 5 seem to suggest that a eunuch -- by extension, those who have mutilated their sexual organs, had sexual reassignment surgeries, etc... -- are capable of coming to faith and being honored by God.

If so, what are we, as the church, to do with them?

[paul]

Verses 4 & 5 seem to suggest that a eunuch -- by extension, those who have mutilated their sexual organs, had sexual reassignment surgeries, etc... -- are capable of coming to faith and being honored by God.

If so, what are we, as the church, to do with them?

You cant unscrambel eggs...So don't discard them.

[MacUser]

Sure. Just not teach Sunday School or be over education like Obama put this man would be my plea...


http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/30/fis ... s-in-1994/

[Poimen]

Oh, okay. I got that. I just though a specific phrase in those verses was intended to be further examined.

There is certainly room for them in the church once they are saved! But just where and how is hard to say. It evidently will come with some limitation as a result of their actions. We reap what we sow. So, I don't think the reference to a eunuch here relieves or removes the ongoing consequences such choices may produce, even in the church. But then it's hard to give practical examples as it is something neither I nor anyone I know has ever really been faced with. I have no experience to draw from, as of yet.

That said, I think the extent to which their alterations are known or detectable, and their willingness to repent from such (both verbally and behaviorally), may have a lot to do with the practical functions they will or will not be able to serve in.

Still, true salvation places them in the Lords church as much as anyone, and requires the same devotion, service, and use of gifts of them as any other.

In short, I dunno.

[dolfan]

I don't qualify to answer, but that never stopped me.

Galatians 3:28.

What do you do with them? To borrow and twist a phrase from that ultimate scholar, "The Brain", "The same thing we do with every one of them Pinky, try and take over the world."

I've discussed here a regular customer at our store who openly wears women's clothing. He wears painted nails, women's jewelry, culottes (did I spell that right?), and has some sort of augmentation in the chest but not much and hides it well and never speaks of it. He's my friend. We talk football and politics and sometimes we talk about Jesus and he's got a lot of issues and, well, he's still my friend. If God accepts him, and this guy gives his life to Christ ----- even if he has a sex-change operation ----- he'll be my friend. He'll be my one and only (because I don't know anyone else like him) dude-looks-like-a-lady friend.

[rough_rider]

If so, what are we, as the church, to do with them?

What we do with everyone else encourage them, love them and stimulate them to good works and in general prepare them for the work of the ministry.

[stevenson]

Anyone, even those who have had their sexual organs changed, can come to Christ. But, I don't think this scripture refers to them.

A eunuch was a man who either was castrated or celibate. This actions were taken so that the man could devote himself entirely to God.

The actions of someone who has mutilated their sexual organs, had sexual reassignment surgeries, etc... is totally for self gratification and not for dedication to the Lord.

God can and will still save them. What should we do with them? Accept them, train & teach them in the ways of the Lord and love them as Christ loves us.

[dolfan]

I don't know 'bout that. Guys with missing, damaged, deformed, etc. sexual organs were considered unclean. God tells them, "I'll take you." I know that the passage is not intended toward people with the kind of elective mutilation we see today in America, but the idea is related --- what do we do with those WE consider "unclean" or "undesirable"? It's a good question, and this example is one that ferrets out some hidden "well, now I don't know if I could do that" that is not comfortable to face.

[Pastor Gary]

Guy starts out male. Gets surgically switched... hormones, breasts, genitalia are now all female. Dresses like a woman, acts female, goes by a female name.

Now - that person gets saved.

Can "she" attend the Ladies' Retreat, or do you encourage "her" to man up and go on the guys' hunting/camping trip? God said he would give them "a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters" but how does that work in practical terms?

[paul]

Guy starts out male. Gets surgically switched... hormones, breasts, genitalia are now all female. Dresses like a woman, acts female, goes by a female name.

Now - that person gets saved.

Can "she" attend the Ladies' Retreat, or do you encourage "her" to man up and go on the guys' hunting/camping trip? God said he would give them "a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters" but how does that work in practical terms?

Matt 19:11-12 "But He said to them, All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: for there are enuchs whor were born thus from their mothers womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom og heaven's sake."

Jesus just gave a discorse on Divorce. and uses this time to teach on Celibacy. so to which set of eunuchs was Isa. referring ?

[Pastorbps]

There is a huge difference between castration and a sex change operation. First of all, it is the motivation. Many eunuchs were forced to become eunuchs, others were castrated as the result of an accident while others may have chosen to become eunuchs to qualify themselves for a particular job. In the Law of Moses castration was strictly forbidden. Here Isaiah is offering acceptance to the outcast and to the repentant. They may not be able to undo their physical deformity but they are still accepted as part of God's people.

Now, how does this apply to those who have had sex change operations? No doubt they can be forgiven and would be forgiven if they come to God. Even though I know men who have been practicing homosexuals who are now strong and active heterosexual Christians, I personally don't know any that have had a sex change and then turned to Christ. There may be a reason for that. Once a person has made that drastic of a change, they have made a willing and deliberate decision to rebel against God's design and commandment. Such a mindset probably borders on reprobate. That being said, IF they do come to God then they would naturally have to repent and turn from a life of perversion to a life of holiness. They should act as they were born. They shouldn't be allowed to be accepted by the church as a "Lady" since they are not a "Lady" but a man who has mutilated his body.

I don't believe, in any way shape or form that this verse applies to sex changes. A repentant eunuch is still a man. A eunuch doesn't repent and say, "Now that I have been castrated I want the church to see me as a woman." That idea is absurd.

[Mike Vande]

This actions were taken so that the man could devote himself entirely to God.

No, not really. Physically maimed eunuchs were made that way either to watch over women, or serve a pagan idol. Physical eunuchry is not nor has it ever been a part of the worship or service to our God. BC or AD. The people who have chosen/been called to serve our God by celibate living are not physically altered. I've been celibate since 1986 and believe me, it' not due to physical inability or lack of desire not to be.

[Poimen]

There is a huge difference between castration and a sex change operation. First of all, it is the motivation. Many eunuchs were forced to become eunuchs, others were castrated as the result of an accident while others may have chosen to become eunuchs to qualify themselves for a particular job. In the Law of Moses castration was strictly forbidden. Here Isaiah is offering acceptance to the outcast and to the repentant. They may not be able to undo their physical deformity but they are still accepted as part of God's people.

Now, how does this apply to those who have had sex change operations? No doubt they can be forgiven and would be forgiven if they come to God. Even though I know men who have been practicing homosexuals who are now strong and active heterosexual Christians, I personally don't know any that have had a sex change and then turned to Christ. There may be a reason for that. Once a person has made that drastic of a change, they have made a willing and deliberate decision to rebel against God's design and commandment. Such a mindset probably borders on reprobate. That being said, IF they do come to God then they would naturally have to repent and turn from a life of perversion to a life of holiness. They should act as they were born. They shouldn't be allowed to be accepted by the church as a "Lady" since they are not a "Lady" but a man who has mutilated his body.

I don't believe, in any way shape or form that this verse applies to sex changes. A repentant eunuch is still a man. A eunuch doesn't repent and say, "Now that I have been castrated I want the church to see me as a woman." That idea is absurd.

I largely, almost wholly agree. That said, I think (and where I disagree) the eunuch tag would find some application, specifically as pertains to their sexuality. A man who has taken on the form of a female can no longer sexually function in the role of man. However, he must not do so as an acting female either and thus is confined to a life of celibacy. Hence, a eunuch.