Isreal's status

[Full Quiver]

LOTS of discussion has taken place here and throughout the Christian world about Israel and her status as God's chosen. I have clung to that belief as well throughout the years but have come to a startling discovering in my walk of faith through grace.

Israel as a whole has denied God's Son Jesus Christ, their high priest.
Israel's way of salvation is one of works and not faith.

Did Jesus not say that an unfruitful tree, Israel, would be hewn down and cast into the fire?

Does the word not tell us that the gentiles were grafted in thus a NEW TREE is created? When you graft a tree you are developing a new species that usually has never been created before (same meaning as being born again) but the new tree has the same roots as the original species. Totally different trees though.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for America supporting and defending Israel as a democratic nation in the midst of a heathen governments but there can only be one chosen nation and that MUST be those that are called out of darkness into HIS marvelous light. Israel sits in darkness.

[beckrl]

I would agree for the nation as a whole, but there are always been God's remnant.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[Full Quiver]

Are you saying God is pleased with the Jewish religion and those that practice it?

[one love]

Are you saying God is pleased with the Jewish religion and those that practice it?

Israel must have a place in Gods heart hence the 144,000

[MacUser]

Question: Is Abraham's covenant still in effect? Is His promise still good?

[Full Quiver]

define the promise Mac.

[ImaPK]

Since the promise to Abraham, Israel always has been and always will be God's chosen. In the end, when the nations of the world comes against them, they are "backed" by God and the valley(Armegeddon) will run red with the blood of their enemies. Sounds to me as if they are still God's chosen people. But then I'm no "expert Christian".

[Full Quiver]

Mike, if that is all literal (and I don't pretend to know) then we must account that the Lord will slay all HIS enemies on that day and I read no where that He comes to save Israel.

[beckrl]

Are you saying God is pleased with the Jewish religion and those that practice it?

Definitely God has been displeased with their disobedience that is why they have for many years and many times come under captivity.

But God has his plan as scripture imply that blindness in part has come unto Israel. That implies that not all is losted. God will keep his promise.

Remember the prodigal son it's a picture of Irsael.

[oletimer]

Full Quiver wrote:

Does the word not tell us that the gentiles were grafted in thus a NEW TREE is created? When you graft a tree you are developing a new species that usually has never been created before (same meaning as being born again) but the new tree has the same roots as the original species. Totally different trees though.

Not quite that way, in order to get a different species you have to do it thru the flowers and change the DNA. What grafting does is take a compatible specie and grow it into the stem of the host root system.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

The gentlies are partakers of what was brought first to the Jews and now to the gentiles. Generally speaking when something is grafted in then it is weaker variety that is strenghten by the root system of the stronger root system.

MacUser Posted:

Question: Is Abraham's covenant still in effect? Is His promise still good?

If you are asking about His promise to bless him and his seed would last for ever, then yes, because Jesus is that SEED. If you are asking about the "faith" then yes as is the "catalysis" that bonds us to the Blood of Christ.

Ro 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I ain't over till it is over and it ain't over yet. The fields are still white and ready for harvest.

[ImaPK]

Mike, if that is all literal (and I don't pretend to know) then we must account that the Lord will slay all HIS enemies on that day and I read no where that He comes to save Israel.

Danny, read my post again. Never said he was coming to save Israel. I said that God would "back" Israel against the enemies that come against her. And the way I understand it pretty much ALL of ISRAEL's(not HIS) enemies will come against her in the end.

[pastorables]

I would like to repost the following article again for your consideration. It was never truly responded to in a previous posting.

If anyone wishes to know whether or not the God of the Bible exists, one of the strongest reasons he can examine is the Jewish people. An honest inquiry into this question will provide more than an adequate answer to the truthfulness of the Christian faith.

About 4,000 years ago, God called a man named Abram out of the country where he was living and gave him these promises, “I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great; and so you shall be a blessing; and I will bless those that bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:2, 3, NASB).

“And the Lord said to Abram… Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever” (Genesis 13:14, 15, NASB).

In other words, God promised to Abram (1) a great nation; (2) a great name; (3) being a blessing to all nations; and (4) a land which shall forever belong to his descendants.

Several hundred years after God made these promises to Abram, the great nation had indeed appeared, numbering in the millions. They were about to enter the land of promise when God, through their leader, Moses, gave them some warnings as recorded in Deuteronomy chapters 28-33.
God warned them against disobedience and promised that He would use other nations to remove them from that land if they were unfaithful to Him. He predicted that they would eventually be scattered across the whole earth as strangers in unfamiliar lands and that they would find no rest from their wanderings. However, God in His faithfulness did promise to bring them back into their land.

What has been the verdict of history? The children of Israel, even though they were warned, fell into idolatry and were removed from their homeland. In 606 b.c. King Nebuchadnezzar took the people captive to Babylon and returned in 588–586 b.c., and after a long siege burned the city and the temple.

However, as God promised, He allowed those who desired to return to the land in 537–536 b.c. or after seventy years (Ezra, chapter 1). The removal from their homeland occurred a second time in a.d. 70 when Titus the Roman destroyed the city of Jerusalem and scattered the people.
For almost 1,900 years, the Jews wandered about the earth as strangers who were persecuted from every side. This culminated in the holocaust of World War II, when six million Jews were put to death in the concentration camps.

Yet, against all odds, the state of Israel was reborn on May 14, 1948, and the Jews began to return to their homeland from all points of the compass. This was the second time in their history since becoming a nation that they have come back into their land. Since 1948 they have survived some terrible conflicts, including the 1967 Six-Day War and the 1973 Holy Day War.

Through all this, the nation neither perished nor lost its national identity. History has demonstrated that any people who leave their homeland will, after about five generations, lose their national identity by being absorbed into the new culture, but the Jews remained a distinct entity.
Not only have they survived, but the nations that persecuted them—Moab, Ammon, Edom, Philistia, and many others—have either been destroyed or completely lost their individual identity.

Have you ever heard of a Swedish Moabite? A Russian Philistine? A German Edomite? An American Ammonite? No! These people have been totally absorbed into other cultures and races.
However, have you ever heard of a Swedish Jew? A Russian Jew? A German Jew? An American Jew? Yes! As prophesied, they have not lost their identity.

One of us was once attending a debate over the person of Jesus Christ in which a rabbi was participating. During the question period, the rabbi was asked why he did not believe in the resurrection of Jesus. “I don’t believe in the miracles of the New Testament,” he replied.

Some sharp student immediately asked the rabbi why he rejected the New Testament miracles but accepted the Old Testament miracles, and on what basis he made the distinction. Without batting an eye, the rabbi replied, “That’s easy; I don’t believe in the Old Testament miracles either. I think they are all myths.” It’s hard to believe he could make a statement like that, considering the fact that his survival, as a Jew, is one of the greatest miracles in all history.

When the two of us were in Israel in 1976, filming the movie, “More Than a Carpenter,” we were invited to meet with a high official of the Israeli government. One of the questions we asked him concerned the survival of his nation.

How did they manage to survive being twice removed from their homeland, the second time almost 1,900 years; survive the holocaust when one out of every three Jews living was put to death, and stave off the attacks of the more than 100 million members of the Arab world in both 1967 and 1973?

Was this a result of their nation being so resourceful or was it because some divine hand was watching over His people? He looked up at the two of us and said, “Although most of the people in my country today would claim to be atheists, don’t you believe it. I think that all of us know deep down inside that some force greater than us has been protecting this nation.” - Josh McDowell

[MacUser]

Wow.. So His promises ARE still good? Great to know even when it might differ from today's religious boundaries.

[JohnDB]

OK Danny I am gonna be brief and lean upon you knowing some scripture...(OK...so it don't look short but it really is considering)

(so if I skip a step somewhere and you get lost ask a question)

Prophesy interpretation is something that has always been argued heavily especially with those with a particular axe to grind.

BUT

You are correct. The Jews had a price to pay for killing their Savior. The rich man and Lazarus parable is a big clue. The Jews were symbolized by the rich man and the Samaritans and Gentiles were symbolized by Lazarus

So they did have a price to pay for their actions the same way as Judas did. Fall upon the rock and be broken or let the rock fall on you and be powdered into non-existance.

BUT

In the Olivet discourse Jesus said something particular. Many times in Prophesy we see deliberate obscuring by Jesus or any prophet's word choice. Granted in the Olivet discourse Jesus was speaking in poetry again (in Aramaic Poetry...not Greek...even though we read it in Greek a person has to retranslate back into Aramaic to see it)

Jesus used a word choice that had a parallel in Greek that all the Gospel writers had when Jesus said that "This Generation shall not pass away..."

Now we all know the fuss over this particular word. How it can have two meanings. What if the two main meanings of this word were both intended. Both race and a literal generation of time.

That prediction certianly both ways would hold true. Neither meanings would be wrong. The Jews are still intact with their Judaism today. The Temple was destroyed in aproximately forty years along with the nation-state of Israel.

God nor Jesus ever predicted the Temple to be rebuilt after it's last destruction very clearly like He had before, although some claim otherwise...it really isn't said IMHO.

So there is one Dispensation left for the Jews as declared by Jesus (although it isn't much of a mystery as to why** (I will explain later). Paul explained that not all of Israel was Israel...Jewishness is a matter of the heart and not of geneology....as by the adoption of Caleb's father shows quite clearly in Scripture.


**As to the why of the Jews continued existance and the promise to Abraham.**

IN Genesis 14 where God promises Abraham the land. There is a double entendre there as well. Many see this as what Abraham could see from where he was standing....but the verb "Look" also has another connotation...."consider". Now the Land of Eden in Genesis is described. That particular description matches all of the Fertile Crescent (or whole known world) with the land area of Israel being the Garden in Eden and the Temple Mount as having the Tree of Life. (same place as Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac) Abraham had actually travelled the whole Fertile Crescent.

Now the Jews to this day hold that land as dear, It's name as the Holy Land is to them very True. God said that this area is the Garden and so it is. The Temple mount can hold the Tree of Life and it can....no other place is described in the Bible except for this small area.

In Eastern Cultures God is seen as existing in Time itself and for all time. (eternal God) Because Abraham was known as God's friend his worship of God must have been proper. So were all of the Patriarchs in their worship of God...So since the bible is clear to the fact that Sin begats more sin any "new worship" of God must be sinful. You have to do things the way that your ancestors did as described in the Bible by Moses, David, and the prophets.

So you would pick up their worship as their ancestor (God blessed you with Genetics they percieved )and worship God accross time with their worship. The worship wasn't yours, you would only carry on your forefather's worship and teach your children to do the same because it was the only way to make God happy. So you now would be able to worship God accross time properly. And to this day this is why Judaism still is in existance. Any descendant of Abraham can pick up these worship practices and be a part of this grand worship of God accross time.
(this goes hand in glove with "Honor your father and mother" which was said to adults and not children.)

OK...I am on a roll here and I can't stop.

Now Sabbath means literally "Cease"
If you will simply believe that the Sabbath Day is also stylized as Today in Hebrews it becomes very Clear. The Sabbath Day that was written into the 10 Commandments with the same breath as not taking the Lord's name in vain and that Jesus' death on the Cross is our Sabbath Day in which we rest...You will put every SDA argument to rest when Jesus said "The Sabbath was made for Man and not Man for the Sabbath".

Jesus also said" The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath" meaning that Jesus is in essence the "alpha and omega" of all sabbath worship. Meaning that all seventh day worship is now to cease. The old way of doing things is now at an end...we must start anew with new worship of Jesus and forget the past. Recognizing that we have these "legalistic roots" as the trunk of our tree...and be very careful about getting caught up in rituals, traditions, and legalisms.

[Full Quiver]

Mike, the Word says that Jesus comes on a white horse to smite the nations and it says the nations gather to make war against HIM not Israel. Again whether or not this is literal is another question.


So now the story of the prodigal son speaks of Israel. I've heard it so many ways.