Kaufman baby death update

[Full Quiver]

Church: Medical Care Not Banned

By Martin Salazar
Journal Staff Writer
The parents of a newborn who died in an Albuquerque hotel in June could have reached out for medical intervention without violating their church's teachings, the head of their church said Monday.
Samuel and Tammy Kaufman did not call for medical assistance while Tammy Kaufman was giving birth to twins in a hotel room on June 26, even as one of the newborns struggled to breathe, according to a search warrant affidavit.
Instead, members of The Church of God, who were in Albuquerque for a conference, gathered inside the room in prayer, and one member performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation on the struggling infant. Despite the effort, baby Moses Kaufman died.
The Kaufmans told police their son's death was "God's will" and refused medical treatment for the surviving boy or his mother.
A former pastor in The Church of God told the Journal earlier this month that the church was unbending in avoiding medical care and hospital birthing.
But Stephen E. Smith, the general overseer or chief bishop of the church, based in Cleveland, Tenn., said that's simply not true.
"The Church of God has never made a statement concerning where children are to be born," Smith said in an e-mailed statement to the Journal. "Some parents choose to have their children born at home, and some choose to have theirs born in a hospital. Members of our church are free to follow their convictions about this."
Smith added that while the church stands firm in its belief in divine healing, it has never forbidden its members from seeking medical help.
"In our General Assembly last year a resolution was passed which included a statement reaffirming this position," Smith said. "The resolution states, '... the church upholds the biblical teaching that divine healing is provided for all in the atonement, but does not teach that it is a sin to visit a doctor or to take medicine.'"
Smith did not respond to an e-mailed request for an interview, and the Kaufmans, who live in Andrews, Texas, have not responded to requests for interviews from the Journal.
According to Albuquerque police reports, the couple had planned to give birth at home, but Tammy Kaufman unexpectedly went into labor at the Sandia Courtyard Hotel and Convention Center.
The Office of the Medical Investigator has yet to rule on a cause and manner of death for baby Moses Kaufman.
The initial autopsy was inconclusive and additional tests were being run.
"It's still pending," OMI spokeswoman Amy Boule said Monday.
Pat Davis, a spokesman for the District Attorney's Office, said his office is still waiting for the OMI report.
"We are withholding any prosecution decisions until we can get a determination on the cause of death from OMI, which will shed some light onto whether the death could have been prevented, possibly with the intervention of medical care," Davis said. "Right now we just don't have that."

Way to throw them under the bus Smith! You were there, supported them, your wife was in the room, you taught them this, all your grandkids were born "at home", and now you refuse a personal interview and say we don't teach this stuff. What a guy!!!

[Pastor Gary]

Perhaps you should email the writer and make those facts known.
journal@abqjournal.com

[Poimen]

Pastor Gary,

Probably much of the reason Bishop Smith responded at all is because Danny ALREADY called (he is the purported former TCOG pastor), sticking his nose where it don't belong, and gave an interview to the paper misrepresenting, distorting, and (no doubt) maliciously portraying TCOG as requiring abstention from medical aid or care. Yes, I read it myself. So it's not hear say.

The guy is a sower of discord, a busybody, and a talebearer. Please take anything he says regarding this and TCOG with a grain of salt. He has some sort of vendetta and vindictiveness towards TCOG, and is using the Kauffman's trouble as an opportunity to rail on TCOG as a whole.

It's disgraceful really.

[RamboPreacher]

Pastor Gary,

Probably much of the reason Bishop Smith responded at all is because Danny ALREADY called (he is the purported former TCOG pastor), sticking his nose where it don't belong, and gave an interview to the paper misrepresenting, distorting, and (no doubt) maliciously portraying TCOG as requiring abstention from medical aid or care. Yes, I read it myself. So it's not hear say.

The guy is a sower of discord, a busybody, and a talebearer. Please take anything he says regarding this and TCOG with a grain of salt. He has some sort of vendetta and vindictiveness towards TCOG, and is using the Kauffman's trouble as an opportunity to rail on TCOG as a whole.

It's disgraceful really.

so kinda like the ex-smoker that is an activist against smoking and has swung to the other side of the pendulum?

[Pastor Gary]

Pastor Gary,

Probably much of the reason Bishop Smith responded at all is because Danny ALREADY called (he is the purported former TCOG pastor), sticking his nose where it don't belong, and gave an interview to the paper misrepresenting, distorting, and (no doubt) maliciously portraying TCOG as requiring abstention from medical aid or care. Yes, I read it myself. So it's not hear say.

The guy is a sower of discord, a busybody, and a talebearer. Please take anything he says regarding this and TCOG with a grain of salt. He has some sort of vendetta and vindictiveness towards TCOG, and is using the Kauffman's trouble as an opportunity to rail on TCOG as a whole.

It's disgraceful really.

Duly noted, and I understand your perspective.

I have stayed out of this one for the most part, but I do have lingering questions...
-- If Smith's wife was present, he will find it more difficult to distance himself (and, by extension, his organization) from the difficult decisions made.
-- Smith is no doubt technically correct in stating TCOGs official assembly position on healing, but you and I know that there are levels of belief in all organizations. I lived through the days of "Advice to Members" being enforced as if engraved by the finger of God on tablets of stone, even though the assembly affirmed it as "advice." My question is -- and it is just a question -- is there huge peer-pressure or unofficial organizational nudge-nudge-wink-wink "acceptance" of medical care, while in practical terms people get branded as less-than-faithful if they depend upon doctors? That's not an accusation, it is a question.

[Poimen]

And, to answer you question (which I understand, especially concerning the context with which you framed it), no -- this issue is not treated that way.

Now, some members and ministers may feel that strongly about it. BUT most, even among the ardent abstainers (and I was one), do not condemn or otherwise belittle fellow believers or members who choose to use or even work in the medical profession. In fact, the number of members, ministers, and leaders (even at HQ) who use medical aid FAR outnumbers those who don't.

Just consider, the assembly statement that TCOG does not view use of medicine or medical treatment as sinful, which Bishop Smith quotes in the above mentioned article, was just passed as recent as 2008 -- under His administration and leadership.

[one love]

PG most the people I know in TCOG go to the doctor and have no issues with it at all. There is a few that hold to the "do not go to the doctor" personal conviction. Most overseers and ministers have no issue with going to the doctor and do themselves. Hope that helps.

[pastorjason]

That is being ground, by the "former" TCOG pastor and the advocacy by another here, these folks were not raised up in a vacuum nor with his wife present can Smith deny that these people were at least discouraged in not going to doctors. The Assembly ruling was one of controversy I am sure because every thing with in the legalistic structure of all the COG offspring are that way. We do not accept change with out kicking and screaming and usually a split.

[Jamais Vu]

PG most the people I know in TCOG go to the doctor and have no issues with it at all. There is a few that hold to the "do not go to the doctor" personal conviction. Most overseers and ministers have no issue with going to the doctor and do themselves. Hope that helps.

while yes most do go to doctors.....

if the ones that dont constantly use the reasons for not going is to "fully trust in God"....

then YES there is an unsaid "i have higher faith" because obviously they are insinuating that those of us who do use the resources available to us are not "fully trusting in God".....

it is so silly really....God has designed us to not FULLY rely on him to do everything for us. we would all be babys with that logic. God does not want a bunch a christian babies....he needs at least some of us to grow up and become mature. even a twelve year old would have enough sense to call 911 in the situation of the premature twins.

[Blessed]

With all due respect, there was no kicking and screaming when this statement was unanimously passed by TCOG. Opportunity was given for discussion, but there was none. It was accepted without question, much less an objection. What if Bishop Smith does not use medicine or doctors? That is consistent with what he said. He said some members do and some don't. In response to Pastor Gary that there are different levels of belief in an organization, let me say this. The difference in the stance of TCOG and COGOP on medicine and doctors is that the TCOG has officially said that it is not a sin to use them. No wonder that Pastor Gary does not judge us when he knows that the COGOP has no such statement. Now please understand me. I am not saying that the COGOP believes that it is a sin to go to doctors or use medicine. I am saying that it would be ridiculous for the COGOP to judge TCOG harshly on this matter, when TCOG has made an official statement and the COGOP has not.

[Blessed]

Perhaps you should email the writer and make those facts known.
journal@abqjournal.com

Pastor Gary,

If you have read the July 11 or 12 article, you know that some of what Full Quiver makes known to the writer are not facts. For instance, he comes across that he left TCOG because they were too strict on this issue. The fact is that for some time after Full Quiver was no longer a member of TCOG that on the internet he was very harsh against those who use medicine and go to doctors. So that had nothing to do with him not being a member. His accusation that TCOG demands that its members have their babies at home is painting with too broad a brush to be factual. Bishop Smith made it known to the writer and the readers that some members of TCOG have their babies at home and some do not. He made it known that some members use doctors and medicine and some do not. He is one of those members. The purpose of his statement was not to give his personal opinion, but rather, as the chief spokesman for the corporate body, to defend TCOG against the false accusation of Full Quiver. It was not his purpose to attack Full Quiver, but rather to defend TCOG of which he is General Overseer. He would have been derelic in his duty if he had not done so. I trust that your post did not mean to insinuate that Full Quiver would be more honest with the facts than Bishop Smith.

[Blessed]

Regardless of the axe that is being ground, by the "former" TCOG pastor and the advocacy by another here . . .

Jason,

The previous newspaper article gave the name of the "former" TCOG pastor as "Danny Page".

[one love]

PG most the people I know in TCOG go to the doctor and have no issues with it at all. There is a few that hold to the "do not go to the doctor" personal conviction. Most overseers and ministers have no issue with going to the doctor and do themselves. Hope that helps.

while yes most do go to doctors.....

if the ones that dont constantly use the reasons for not going is to "fully trust in God"....

then YES there is an unsaid "i have higher faith" because obviously they are insinuating that those of us who do use the resources available to us are not "fully trusting in God".....

it is so silly really....God has designed us to not FULLY rely on him to do everything for us. we would all be babys with that logic. God does not want a bunch a christian babies....he needs at least some of us to grow up and become mature. even a twelve year old would have enough sense to call 911 in the situation of the premature twins.

sure there are a few that would say you have to the faith to not go to doctors but Brother that is in most organizations. I do not hear it preached to us nor do I hear anyone condemn me for it and I have posted it online for years regarding this issue.


BTW nobody ever asked me to have our children at home either.


Hey Fullquiver I have a question. I do not mean this as a attack at all and I know you will know that. The article keeps calling you a former pastor in tcog. Did you ever pastor in TCOG? Or was it only TCOGNC? Just curious I thought that was where you pastored. I could be wrong.
I was under the impression you pastored under TCOGNC after you left TCOG. Is that correct?

[Shepherd]

I joined the Church of God of Prophecy over 50 years ago. I renewed my covenant with The Church of God at the Solemn Assembly in 1993. I am still a member of The Church of God. Like most of the Pentecostal organizations, we have some who believe that it takes greater faith in God to refrain from doctors and medicine. However, I have never heard it preached or taught by anyone in The Church of God that it is a sin to take medicine or go to a doctor. I have never been taught to have my babies at home and neither has my wife.

[RamboPreacher]

I have never been to a TCOG service, however I have talked with several "concerned" folk. and they weren't taught that it is a sin to take medications or see a doctor, but the peer pressure was extreme, intimating that there is a lack of faith if they did.