Bibilical Pastoral Searches

[RuSKY]

In order not to hijack the other thread, I have a question.

What is the bibilical way for pastors to be selected?

Is there scripture that indicates what the New Testement principle is?

Dr. Ron and Paul seem to feel the way that is used as Independents
is ok, though perhaps, not the only way.

P.G. seem to think The CoGoP's way works fine, as do others in CoGoP
and other groups.

The Baptist in this area are each independent bodies although part of
some group, SBC...ect. They always select their own pastor.

I have to say, for me, The appointment method seems very cultish,
have someone who "very probably" doesn't know a local church,
it's people, it's culture tell that church this is who you are going to have
as a pastor. It also says to the members, "you people are children
and don't have the mental, or spiritual capacity to make that decision.
And in all fairness, that could possibly be the case.

But in this day and time, a local church often has people who are
more educated and have been christains longer than the Overseer.
Also, who would know more about that local than the members?
If the local makes a mistake and selects the wrong one and it doesn't
work out, they could replace him or her. Heaven knows, overseers
have made this mistake.

Just think of the pressure it would take off the overseer. He could say
you selected him/her, you live with the decision.

Anyway.....What is the bibicaly method?

RuSKY

[RamboPreacher]

there isn't one, explicitly. any extrapolation is based in interpretation and preconceived ideas and definitions.

[PastorDaniel]

I have to say, for me, The appointment method seems very cultish,
have someone who "very probably" doesn't know a local church,
it's people, it's culture tell that church this is who you are going to have
as a pastor. It also says to the members, "you people are children
and don't have the mental, or spiritual capacity to make that decision.
And in all fairness, that could possibly be the case.

RuSKY

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. Acts 14:23 KJV

The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint[a] elders in every town, as I directed you. An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Titus 1:5-6 NIV

These are just a couple of verses that I found quickly...however, it is common knowledge that the Apostles selected, ordained, and appointed Elders (Pastors) for the local churches. Nothing childish or cultish about it...not hard to find in the scriptures either.

[RamboPreacher]

preconceived ideas and definitions.

while I do NOT disagree with you PastorDaniel (I do agree); the reality is that this is extrapolation. our concept of "pastor", is not the same as what is discussed in those references. I do believe that the scriptural references apply, but not explicitly.

[PastorDaniel]

preconceived ideas and definitions.

while I do NOT disagree with you PastorDaniel (I do agree); the reality is that this is extrapolation. our concept of "pastor", is not the same as what is discussed in those references. I do believe that the scriptural references apply, but not explicitly.

I agree with that....I was just "quickly" not "scholarly" pointing out that "appointments" were definitly founded in the scriptures....

[RuSKY]

I have to say, for me, The appointment method seems very cultish,
have someone who "very probably" doesn't know a local church,
it's people, it's culture tell that church this is who you are going to have
as a pastor. It also says to the members, "you people are children
and don't have the mental, or spiritual capacity to make that decision.
And in all fairness, that could possibly be the case.

RuSKY

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. Acts 14:23 KJV

The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint[a] elders in every town, as I directed you. An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Titus 1:5-6 NIV

These are just a couple of verses that I found quickly...however, it is common knowledge that the Apostles selected, ordained, and appointed Elders (Pastors) for the local churches. Nothing childish or cultish about it...not hard to find in the scriptures either.

Well, PastorDaniel I don't know if we have any Apostles in this day and time to do appointing.
I, like Rambopreacher, wonder if our idea of pastor is the same as in early church times.
Also, the word says "they appointed Elders." it seems not just one person.

I really don't know what the proper, bibilical method is.

I am glad that the scriptures are so open and clear to you.
Some of us are children I guess, therefore childish, but I'm sure you, as pastor will care for us,
until we can understand.

RuSKY

[paul]

I have to say, for me, The appointment method seems very cultish,
have someone who "very probably" doesn't know a local church,
it's people, it's culture tell that church this is who you are going to have
as a pastor. It also says to the members, "you people are children
and don't have the mental, or spiritual capacity to make that decision.
And in all fairness, that could possibly be the case.

RuSKY

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. Acts 14:23 KJV

The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint[a] elders in every town, as I directed you. An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Titus 1:5-6 NIV

These are just a couple of verses that I found quickly...however, it is common knowledge that the Apostles selected, ordained, and appointed Elders (Pastors) for the local churches. Nothing childish or cultish about it...not hard to find in the scriptures either.

If you choose Pauls method then you are choosing both form that is commonly used today. Paul appointed as in Titus, timothy. Paul also choose elders from within the local church and not from outside the local assembly and with the prayers of the whole assembly participating.

Also for the independant minister he can surely claim that God had called him and chosen him/her just as Paul was chosen on the road to damascas. Sent out to do a specific work and calling.

Biblical support could be found for most types of pastoral selection. Non of which is totally free from "the flesh" I don't think there is truly an absolute one way only approach.

The organization that I founded will make an recomendation only at the request of the local church if they have exhausted all efforts and still do not have a candiates. This is rare because most of the church we have have been pioneered by an individual who felt called of God to a certain area.

As far as committment for Life. I stand firm on that as Dr. Ron spoke. My last pastorate we were committed for life and had no intention of ever leaving. It was only after a long searching of the heart and prophetic words and confirmations that we turned the church over to someone else with full acceptance by the congregation that we went to the mission fields to organize WMOF.

[PastorDaniel]

Well...this is why I don't usually get into these type discussions...

Rusky...you're the one that started out using the term childish and cultish...all I was doing is pointing out that "appointments" were scriptural...that they are not childish or cultish...but scriptural....

Paul...as I mentioned...not looking to dive in to indepth doctrinal debate...just pointing out that "appointments" were in the scriptures...

Not interested in offending or debating anyone...

[RuSKY]

Rusky...you're the one that started out using the term childish and cultish...all I was doing is pointing out that "appointments" were scriptural...that they are not childish or cultish...but scriptural....

PastorDaniels, I'm sorry, I was too blunt.

While there are scriptures stating that appointments were made,
It seems that in Acts, the appointment were made after the
people searched out those for the appointment.

Again, I really don't know the proper method for selection of pastor.

It may by be appointment, but not like used today in most COGOP
and other groups.

Why could not the local church make the appointment. Wouldn't
that not be the appointment method?

It does seem to me that the local members be involved.

I wonder if, when the apostles started local churches, if some people, of
that local, would exibit the leadership abilities and spirituality needed
to serve in the position of pastor. Then be appointed.

Or, for example, is there evidence that Paul sent someone form Ephesis to pastor at Corinth?

RuSKY

[Pastor Bill]

if the local church made the appointment, it wouldn't really be an appointment would it?

Paul did set Timothy in the church, and it is at least implied he was more unknown with the possibility of not being accepted, but Paul encouraged him that was where he needed to be.

I've been on both sides of this, and honestly it's never as cut and dry or as simple as what people may think.

One example (non-CoGoP) is a church that was my home church, something came up in the pastor's family, it caused some issues in the church even though it was not the pastor's fault, and he stepped down. Many in the church pushed for a man (unlicensed by that organization at the time) to be put in as pastor, but some more in leadership in the church questioned it, and the overseer (non-CoGoP) recognized those problems. He appointed an experienced pastor who came in for a few years (previously retired) this man was able to work through the issues and get the church to a more stable place. Would the church have selected him, no, in fact some in the church continued to push for the other man, who eventually was placed in as pastor, and almost destroyed that local body. Sometimes an outsider has a perspective that can be VERY helpful.

I know overseers get the bad rap of just appointing willy-nilly, or focus on friends, or alot of other fleshly issues, and I'm not saying those don't come into play, but it's not an easy task either. I know many churches that have chosen their pastor, and I have seen that fail as much if not more than appointments, it's not perfect either, because it also involves people in the flesh.

Sometimes God gives obvious direction, and it works wonderfully, and both the church and overseer are glad to see that happen, other times it's difficult and it's easy for mistakes to be made.

[christian]

This may be more of a new thread, but thought it might fit in here. Feel free, as I know you will, to zap or move me. Even though some of you will not agree with this post, some know it to be absolutely true. I have no "dog in this fight" since I gave up 30+ years of trying to justify the abuses I've seen and am now with a group that just meets together to worship God. Everyone is free to speak his/her mind. We have areas of disagreements on things, but they’re covered by charity toward one another. There’s no room for bosses or deed holders. We’ve gone from building a gorgeous building with all the bells and whistles we thought would be used in the Lord’s service to a rented space, but the rented space far surpasses the terrible abuse and mess we left. However, I can still see what the Scriptures have to say about appointing leaders, etc. I do believe much of this goes on because people truly think their organization has it right and they don’t even question how things are. Been there and done that.
In spite of what’s stated below, there are leaders and churches that are doing it the biblical way. I believe there are leaders who are truly servants of God who love the people they’re serving and would never consider abuse of power. They give their lives to shepherding the flock. This doesn’t mean they become doormats, but they are true leaders whom the people recognize as leader, and are glad to follow them as they follow Christ.
I believe if you look again at your scriptures you'll find they appointed leaders from people the congregation had searched out and recommended. The local church knows the people. Some organizations today are still sending in pastors that neither the Overseer nor the congregation knows. Unfortunately, by the time they do know them, it's often too late, and the local congregation is destroyed. You're very wrong to think an Overseer has to consult with a local church when they hold the reins and the deed to the property. Possession is still 9/10’s of the law, and when you think properties belong to the Lord, you are in line to find out the hard cold facts that the property belongs to the one with the deed, which means they can send in anyone they want and there’s nothing you can do about it.
On the other hand, a church can have troublemakers and controllers, where no pastor is going to be able to pastor effectively until this is taken care of. However, it’s no more a sin for a member of the congregation to insist on controlling the way a church is ‘run’ than it is for a person to be appointed to a congregation and want to ‘run’ things. Churches are in dire need of servant leadership, not just talking about it but actually doing it. If you only look at what’s in manuals and minutes, you’d think certain churches have it right, but when it comes down to living it, you find there’s such abuse that the minutes and manuals become a false picture of what’s really going on.
It's sad, but in order for some of these things to be corrected, we would have to do things the way Jesus said to do them. That would mean servant leadership - not the way of the world. Instead the church is managed like any business of the world. You have the CEO, the VP's, the managers and the underlings. Jesus plainly said not to do it this way, but it continues. The Bible says God hates the Nicolaitin doctrine(conquer the laity) – the separating of the laity and ministry, but it continues, and many times, it’s just because people don’t know they’re doing it.
One of the ways ‘they’ keep control is, if you ask questions or dare to state your opinion, you’re accused of being a troublemaker or wanting control. That’s the way abusers continue their abuse – by telling their victims to be quiet about it. Even on this forum, I’ve been accused of wanting to control things because of some of the things I’ve stated. God will judge who is right.
Even if you think I’m some sort of troublemaker and not worth listening to, maybe you will find the following link an interesting read.....http://members.toast.net/puritan/Articl ... tion_f.htm

[PastorDaniel]

Thanks for the Apology and clarification Rusky...sometimes the printed word can be misread and I apologize if I was guilty of that as well...

I think most of us are on the same page here....I like what you posted Christian and I'm sorry to hear of the abuses you have endured...I surely know what you've been through...I have never experienced this in the COGOP...though many have...however...I was in the UPC for 8 years and my family experienced and witnessed a multitude of spiritual abuses and control issues....

I believe that we all look through the glass darkly and no one has it just right...I did grow up COGOP...but I've been independent of them and in other organizations....I don't believe that there is a perfect method to the madness...all of the methods discussed can both WORK and FAIL...what matters is whether or not the Pastor that God wants in a church gets there...it don't matter how he's selected...just that he or she is where God wants them and the congregations spiritual needs are being ministered to and met.

[christian]

Pastor Daniel, I appreciate your last post. I, too, am in an independent situation, so I'm not trying to change anyone's way of doing things. People who abuse others will keep doing that until someone in a position to do something about it does something about it. Unfortunately, sometimes the prophet and the priest are both profane. Not my words, but Bible words. However, there is One above all that sees what's taking place. There will be people who want to do God's will and God is still setting people where He wants them. Just because terrible injustices happened in my case does not take away from the many wonderful christians doing the work of God wherever they are. Many (I do believe many) are sacrificing for their faith. It's such a comfort to know that God knows them that are his. Even the world's science is proving more and more how unique each individual is, and I'm persuaded, when churches and organizations and people fall or come apart, He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him. He's a good God, and all things truly do work together for good for His own. God bless.

[RamboPreacher]

good discussions. I guess I just tried to answer the question.

as for me, I will be submissive to my overseer, but I also know how to say "no thanks" if I am truly convictive.

[RuSKY]

if the local church made the appointment, it wouldn't really be an appointment would it?

So, Pastor Bill, it has to be an "overseer" or someone outside the
the local that makes the selection and appointment for it to be an
appointment?

I guess I thought an appointment by anyone was an appointment.

BTW, who do you think would know the local church, its needs
and what would fit better, the local people or an overseer just sent
into a state?

Do you think it likely, that a man raised, say, in Los Angles or in NYC
would understand the culture and people of eastern Ky., or northern Ms.
or any rural setting without having spent some years there?
Or Vice Versa.


RuSKY