tired of extremists

[dawgs10]

so i will be voting for Romney...its time to take America back from the all or nothing gang of punk, childish people that act like thugs rather than Americans. And I am speaking of both extreme sides.

[DeWayneTN]

Good for you. I'll be voting for who I want to vote for, too, regardless of the rhetoric from any side.

[dawgs10]

i really do feel that if America does not grow up and find middle ground and work together we will fail as a country. "A house divided will not stand".

[dolfan]

i really do feel that if America does not grow up and find middle ground and work together we will fail as a country. "A house divided will not stand".

The house has already collapsed because it is built on sand, not because it is divided. My .02: Concentrate on the labor of God's eternal kingdom and forget about the vanities of our "culture of government". None of these candidates is going to do one thing to bring American people and people within our borders one inch closer to Jesus. Government simply cannot, even on its best day where all of its leaders walk around chanting Psalms and washing each other's feet, bring one soul to the knowledge of Jesus. The day is nearing and the hour late. Whatever we do or don't in terms of the harvest, spending any time and thought on civil government is time wasted. John 18:36. The fall of this house is guaranteed. Revelation 11:15. All the prating about of candidates, even ones who profess Christ, is so much vanity and rage. Psalm 2.

[Full Quiver]

I'm voting for the extremist George Washington, then John Adams, the Thomas Jefferson. You can stick with the current system/monarchy.

[dawgs10]

Dolfan, I agree. But it would be nice to have a gov that would work together.

[dolfan]

I know what you mean, Dawgs. I, too, get tired of the constant sniping. My solution has been pretty much to ignore it now.

What if Washington, DC was filled with people who all genuinely got along? Truly had a common vision and purpose? Honestly thought that they were doing what they do for the good of the whole nation and not for special interests? What if....?

I'll tell ya.

The same end of it would occur as what is going to occur to the whole kit and kaboodle around the planet. Civil government is an aberration. True Government in Christ has been revealed, its structure and shape has been sufficiently made clear in Scripture. And, that Government will "be upon His shoulders". The governments of now and the future (whatever of it there may be, short or long) are not going to deliver the rule over men to Jesus. He is not waiting on the kingdoms of this world.

He is executing a wholesale destruction of them. It does not yet appear, but it is firmly in hand, intractable, unavoidable and totally wonderful. The church of Jesus has no business with or in the civil governments of the world. In the same way that they insist upon complete domination of life in every aspect (what I think of as the culture of government), they also draw the very life from that much of the church that has any connection with it. Friendship with it is impossible.

What is possible, however, is the kind of love toward those who govern that Jesus commands we give to our enemies. That is a winsome love. It is also a subjection to the "powers that be" that does not require the least entanglement with it. That's a very far reaching notion, though, and I'm not free of it myself -- obviously, given what I do for a living.

Maybe it is possible to live alongside this system without belonging to it. I don't know the answers. I am convinced that politics is evil. I am convinced that all sides and all possible views/arguments of all possible issues to which civil government addresses itself are so off the mark of God's way that none of the sides and approaches can be called anything other than sin-infected. If I'm right, then civil government is not only doomed, but accursed in its very nature.

So, while I really would appreciate a pall of silence over all politicians from the dog catcher to the POTUS himself, I would love even more for Jesus to really be lived before us as actual King and Lord. We'd likely find our attachments to government fading and dying accordingly.

[scooter]

i really do feel that if America does not grow up and find middle ground and work together we will fail as a country. "A house divided will not stand".

The house has already collapsed because it is built on sand, not because it is divided. My .02: Concentrate on the labor of God's eternal kingdom and forget about the vanities of our "culture of government". None of these candidates is going to do one thing to bring American people and people within our borders one inch closer to Jesus. Government simply cannot, even on its best day where all of its leaders walk around chanting Psalms and washing each other's feet, bring one soul to the knowledge of Jesus. The day is nearing and the hour late. Whatever we do or don't in terms of the harvest, spending any time and thought on civil government is time wasted. John 18:36. The fall of this house is guaranteed. Revelation 11:15. All the prating about of candidates, even ones who profess Christ, is so much vanity and rage. Psalm 2.

Response: I am disappointed.

When one looks at the Bible you can see how that Godly individuals have brought great salvation to entire kingdoms on multiple occasions.

Has God stopped using individuals?

When a government or a nation forgets God it is not a time of "well all governments will fail" but to me rather a time for a reminding call.

When the wicked rule good people have failed to vote.

[Full Quiver]

We blame govt. officials for not getting along when we can't even get along. Americans don't always agree so to think that we will elect representatives that will always agree is ludicrous.

Let's start with this. I'll tell you guys who to vote for and then all our reps will agree.

[dolfan]

Response: I am disappointed.

When one looks at the Bible you can see how that Godly individuals have brought great salvation to entire kingdoms on multiple occasions.

Has God stopped using individuals?

When a government or a nation forgets God it is not a time of "well all governments will fail" but to me rather a time for a reminding call.

When the wicked rule good people have failed to vote.

And, I respect that view. Most Christians agree with it. I used to. But, let me tell you why I believe I've traded up, not given up. I say that not in accusation to anyone else. But, I've come to some hard realizations, and one of them is that Christianity on the one hand and Americanism and all other national or political "isms" on the other are simply against each other and can't/never could be made otherwise.

God surely has used people to speak the message of repentance from sin and a turn to God. You are 100% right. I find no instance, though, where a government was addressed in that way outside of Israel. That matters because Israel was the expression, then, of God's government in the world and unique. The Church is the expression of that government now (I'm not saying Israel is out of the picture; I believe God will still redeem natural Israel). It is the only nation in the NT that God speaks through. In the end, the only nation that will exist will be the one built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone. If that's all that endures, then those institutions which will not endure are rendered meaningless and even evil. Everything in heaven and earth will be subjected to Christ, by force and judgment or by faith and obedience.

Governments do one thing. Increase their own power. That is their fuel, their reason for being. (Side note: compare this with 1 Cor. 13, the 'love chapter', and how that love does not seek its own.) When the Bible says all nations that forget God will turn to hell, it is not a governmental observation but a recognition that the people of the nation who forget God will do so. Governments are not redeemed, they are not saved, they are not resurrected and they do not go to hell. They are tools used by fallen men for corrupt purposes, systems around which people organize and conduct life.

My understanding is that Christians have a choice and that we cannot pick more than one. Just as Jesus says you cannot serve God and money, you cannot serve God and government. By the nature of each, allegiance to only one is allowed; otherwise, you will reject one at the expense of the other, serve one and oppose the other.

All civil government on the planet, ever, has only opposed God. It has never -- in spite of its highest statements and loftiest intents to the contrary, in spite of its most noble philosophies of acknowledgement of God -- it has never actually been or done the New Testament government of the ministry of the Word of God for the sake of Jesus to the exclusion of all other concerns not immediately related to that. Never. At best, governments have been concords of well meaning Christians and evil doers who oppose God.

When Dawgs says that a house divided against itself cannot stand, but cites the inability of politicians to cooperate as an example of that truth, he is right and wrong. A house divided falls, for sure, and for that he is so very right. But, this house (US gov't) and all similar houses are already -- at best, now -- concords of Christ and Belial. It is that very attempt to fuse Christ with such evil that prompted Paul to warn against it in 2 Cor. 6.

The kingdoms of the world are not going to become kingdoms of Christ because they have obeyed Him. They are going to become His because He will crush them in wrath and establish His own actual, earthly government: that is, if we really do believe in a millenium of Christ's reign on earth to come.

I want to please be clear: I do not, do not, do not believe that Christians should run and hide. I simply have come to the point where, as best as I can understand the Bible and what it says about the world , and having that as the basis of informing my views in what I do for a living, it is inescapable to conclude that any act of "citizenship" that participates in the exercises of government is futile. I believe, though, that Christians are the only means God has chosen to deliver His message of sin, judgment, wrath, grace, faith, repentance, salvation and transformation. That message IS to the nations (the people). That message IS also 180 degrees in opposition to even gatherings like Rick Perry's prayer meeting whereby he touched first base on his way to his own home plate goal of personal power in the presidency, and where people gathered to pray the very futile and hopeless petition (based on interviews and statements given to media by people who attended) that somehow God would redeem government in America and make it more conservative -- a goal that I am quite sure God has zero interest in achieving since His purpose in all of creation is to glorify Himself without regard to the political style of American government.

We (American Christians, that is) remind me of Jonah. He has given us a message (repent, be saved), but we really don't want to deliver it out of fear that God will have mercy on people who we don't like (politically, culturally). We'd rather, frankly, have God send a different message that validates us instead of the one message -- the unadulterated gospel -- that glorifies Him. Satan has corrupted that message with so many distractions and additions, glosses and slants, and he capitalizes on all of the political desires that are born in our flesh. Is it any wonder, then, that the church in America (not all of it, of course) seems to be adrift? Surrounded by darkness? Unable to escape? Ready to be spit out, even? Is that not the refrain we hear from some of the church's most prophetic voices in our land?

God's goal for us is not a better America. God is glorifying Himself through a people He calls out to Himself to accomplish the works that He ordains that we do. That is not a governmental, political activity.

[scooter]

-- a goal that I am quite sure God has zero interest in achieving since His purpose in all of creation is to glorify Himself without regard to the political style of American government.
.

Response: I am even more so disappointed.

God has zero interest in nations being more "conservative" is not in line with the word or spirit in no way shape or form.

Whether stated or no the line of thinking that you have embraced is defeatist at its core.

To say God has no interest in whether the Godly or ungodly rule a nation is not a "biblical" or true statement.

If a nation is more conservative does it not expand the opportunity for the expanse of "the kingdom" of God?

Why are there messages to "kingdoms" of this earth if it is not to produce change within that nation.

Of a truth God desires nations to follow His leading.

Surely His eternal kingdom will eclipse any earthly form of government but if it takes another 100 years 1000 years for this to come to pass wouldn't it be more benificial for a nation to promote faithfilled values?

No wonder Jesus wondered whether or not that there would be faith upon His return. This the zero sum impact teaching to a nation, to any nation, sheds light on His thought process.

So you know Jesus and enter into his eternal rest at 84 years old, hopefully you will have made a difference that will promote faith among your fellow citizens of any nation. Hopefully that nation will remember God when you are gone.

I am concerned that will not happen with the thinking that skips the now of impact for the then that will eventually come.

[dolfan]

-- a goal that I am quite sure God has zero interest in achieving since His purpose in all of creation is to glorify Himself without regard to the political style of American government.
.

Response: I am even more so disappointed.

God has zero interest in nations being more "conservative" is not in line with the word or spirit in no way shape or form.

Whether stated or no the line of thinking that you have embraced is defeatist at its core.

To say God has no interest in whether the Godly or ungodly rule a nation is not a "biblical" or true statement.

If a nation is more conservative does it not expand the opportunity for the expanse of "the kingdom" of God?

Why are there messages to "kingdoms" of this earth if it is not to produce change within that nation.

Of a truth God desires nations to follow His leading.

Surely His eternal kingdom will eclipse any earthly form of government but if it takes another 100 years 1000 years for this to come to pass wouldn't it be more benificial for a nation to promote faithfilled values?

No wonder Jesus wondered whether or not that there would be faith upon His return. This the zero sum impact teaching to a nation, to any nation, sheds light on His thought process.

So you know Jesus and enter into his eternal rest at 84 years old, hopefully you will have made a difference that will promote faith among your fellow citizens of any nation. Hopefully that nation will remember God when you are gone.

I am concerned that will not happen with the thinking that skips the now of impact for the then that will eventually come.

Scooter, I did not say God has no interest in whether people are godly or not. If a person is a ruler, certainly God's desire is that they be godly. At the same time, because of the antichrist nature of civil government of any political belief (I say that because every civil government both seeks its own in opposition to love and is a concord of pagans), why would a believer ignore the call of God and rule a nation or any part of it?
It is the ruling itself that is ungodly.

That is not defeatist. It is defeated. The pagans lose.

And, no, conservatism does not expand opportunities for the kingdom. If it did, I'd be of a very different mind. Think about it. The very thought inherent there is that God needs a choice political philosophy of the day to bring about His will in salvation. I'd submit that history contradicts that -- even today. China is booming in revival. Iran is gaining Christians so fast it is spinning mullah's heads off their shoulders. Where's America? Conservatism (and liberalism and big-governmentism, of which both parties are guilty) has birthed, nurtured and matured the generations that have steered us into the mess we're in. No, that's not expanding the kingdom of God.

The messages to kingdoms were of judgment. I believe the only times we find them being spoken to in terms of being saved/preserved/used were when God used them to judge Israel. They weren't appealed to simply in terms of saving the people. Even Jonah's mission to Nineveh was a street preaching kind of deal, or at least there's no mention he spoke to kings as kings. Even Paul's appeal to the Roman throne and his messages to those in power was to save those people. It was not an appeal for them to become conservative or liberal or whatever; it was an appeal for them to die and be born again.**

I agree with people valuing faith. But, "beneficial" is relative. If people are more peaceful, then that is a gift from God for sure. Yet, there is no political philosophy on any horizon today that promotes true peace, or even half peace. Everything is full of fury and lust and greed and power-grabbing, from the GOP to the ACLU, from Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann to Gloria Steinem and Nancy Pelosi. You watch and see how faithful to peace for Christians and freedom for Christians that the likes of the Tea Party become when their momentum peters out. Watch and see how contemptuous conservatives like John McCain and Mitch McConnell become to Christians who align with Tea Party types. There's no peace now and there will not be regardless of who is elected. And, to the extent there is not outright war own streets, it isn't conservatism that restrains it --- it is a patient calculated strategy of when to kill and not to kill, a calculation that is being made by conservatives and liberals alike. So, the benefit of conservatism is largely imagined. It is not consistent with faith as a value.


** While driving, Paul's defense before Agrippa popped into my head. Acts 26:28, 29.

"Agrippa replied to Paul, 'In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.' And Paul said, 'I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains'."

That is the call of the Christian. To speak the truth of the sin, judgment, wrath, grace, faith, repentance and salvation and want that even the powers that be to become like us in following Christ, and not like Christianized versions of principalities and powers. To be sure, we subject ourselves to those very same powers in love for the enemies of Christ that we might save them just as Paul approached Agrippa.

[scooter]

I suppose we are cut from different clothes.

The scripture says:
Pro 14:34
Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin [is] a reproach to any people.

Not blessed is the nation that persecutes because the underground church grows.

I do not want to give up, live in defeat, in this present life that God can still use His people within a nation that it might be exalted for His glory.

I look at the way God used Joseph in government that " many people might be saved alive". Or like Daniel where the recognition of the only true and living God reached to the highest office. Or Esther that saved her own "nation" by operating within a nation.

Your mission may be to point to doomsday. Mine may be different.

I agree that our current systems are broken. Look to the headlines today which decry

DAVID Cameron last night claimed Britain was turning into a “de-moralised society” with little grasp of the difference between right and wrong.

I still trust God's word that the way people live can positively impact their nation and that positive impact is worth something to God, else why would He mention the fact.

[dolfan]

I agree -- God blesses nations that exalt Him. Just not the governments.

My views on this are absolutely unpopular and unattractive. I do disagree that they are defeatist, though. That said, I pray that people in our nation will begin to turn to Jesus in record numbers. And, while China and Iran are not blessed because of persecution, their people are blessed as the number of believers grows. It is curious how our society is turning against God and the number of believers reportedly drops while those nations are seeing revival while their governments oppose Him. His purposes are served, ultimately.

[dawgs10]

the issue in washington is the gangish, street punk style of politics that is going on between the two extreme sides. they both should be removed. John Adams was mentioned earlier. If you read the book John Adams you would find someone that had a very strong opinion on most issues but when he became president he did what it took to bring about progress. he was very middle of the road when Hamilton wanted to go to war with the French. He kept the peace and lost the election. he did the right thing. now we are on the verge of putting another guy in office that has destroyed the public school system in texas and accepted billions in tarp to balance the budget. "created thousands of minimum wage jobs with gov. money and may win the office because of his swagger. is it just me or does anyone else wonder why he put together a huge prayer service right before he announced he was running. is he pandering? The left wants to continue to give away all of the tax money coming in to those that will not work. The right continues to want to cut Social Security when it had nothing to do with the debt...and do away with every thing that they consider social when many people's lives depend on it... We need a good common sense middle of the road person person that cares about everyone. not just one group or the other.....