Jude 2

Hey this is something I have studied and seen a subtle difference within alot of churches today, since things have been quiet, maybe this could be a good study.

I believe the gifts of the Spirit are given to believers for the purpose of bringing others to Christ through various avenues of ministry. I do not believe that all Christians have all gifts. I do not believe those gifts should be used to edify "self". I also believe that the "gifts" would be more effective if the "fruits" were exercised more.

Kenya wrote:I believe the gifts of the Spirit are given to believers for the purpose of bringing others to Christ through various avenues of ministry. I do not believe that all Christians have all gifts. I do not believe those gifts should be used to edify "self". I also believe that the "gifts" would be more effective if the "fruits" were exercised more.

Interesting that this poll was posted. Last sunday, during our Men's class this very topic was covered. Our leader used materials from Patrick Morley http://www.maninthemirror.org/alm/alm4.htm
Interesting study and good discussion topic, at least for our class.

The things I have come to believe about gifts...
(1) They exist, and are operational in the church today;
(2) Everyone has a gift, though some may seem more spiritual than others. A gift of hospitality, for example, may seem just like friendliness and not seem as holy as healings;
(3) It is often difficult and confusing to separate ones gift from their natural talents or passions: example - a guy who love music and plays guitar with great skill may be said to be talented. That same guy playing under the unction of the Spirit might play the same notes and move people to tears, because He was then exercising a gift.
(4) Some gifts are permanent and are "owned" by an individual, while others are collectively resident in the church and "rise up" within one for the moment... Pastor is a ministry gift that is given to an individual and is "without repentance," or in other words, resides in that individual permanently; interpretation of tongues seems to operate through specific people, but God will get His message through if they are not present by operating that gift through another individual, maybe even one who has never exxperienced it before.
(5) Motivation gifts (mercy, faith etc.) do not need a trigger -- they are idling in the background ready to go at any time. Manifestation gifts (tongues, etc.) are triggered by Holy Spirit unction, but can be controlled by the vessel -- (If you felt moved by the Spirit over something somebody told you in line at the Piggly Wiggly, yopu could control yourself and not yell out in tongues.)
(6) Some gifts are for our personal edification and others are for evangelization. Praying in tongues in your private devotional life edifies noone but you, while prophecy is known to "cause the secrets of their hearts to be laid bare" so that they will fall down in worship and know that God is real.

Pastor Gary is kindof going in the direction I was looking, but I guess I should have defined what I meant by gifts a little more.

I don't really see things like musical ability or hospitality as gifts, exactly, but more abilities that God annoints. I guess this would go along with Gary's concept that these gifts stayed with the person. I was really looking mostly to the nine gifts listed in I Corinthians 12. Gary took things a little deeper than what I was thinking, but addressed most of what I am concerned about. Basically I don't like labels. I see people who God uses, then consider themselves owners of that particular gift. (God uses them in the gift of prophecy so they consider themselves a profit, and expect to prophesy at will, or that they will always be given a word of prophecy)

My understanding is that the Gifts are God working through us, and are manifest only in His will. Yes as Gary pointed out we do have some control over them, in that we can supress them at times, but I am looking to the other side of things, can we expect just to pull them out like tools of the trade whenever we want? Can a person really possess the gift of interpretation, healing, miracles, etc. and use them at will, or are these manifestations of the Spirit and only present when the Spirit brings them forth.

From what I have studied God can use any willing vessel at any time in any gift, but I don't see where that implies any future use of that gift in that individual, nor do I see control over it's use being handed to the individual.

I know that some of the things Gary mentioned (musical ability, Pastoral gifts, hospitality etc.) do seem this way, but I would characterize them as more abilities or personality traits that God uses within a person and annoints, more than manifestations of the Spirit.

What do you all think?

Paully_44 wrote:

Kenya wrote:I believe the gifts of the Spirit are given to believers for the purpose of bringing others to Christ through various avenues of ministry. I do not believe that all Christians have all gifts. I do not believe those gifts should be used to edify "self". I also believe that the "gifts" would be more effective if the "fruits" were exercised more.

Interesting that this poll was posted. Last sunday, during our Men's class this very topic was covered. Our leader used materials from Patrick Morley http://www.maninthemirror.org/alm/alm4.htm
Interesting study and good discussion topic, at least for our class.

I looked over the website, and it seems to portray exactly what I was afraid of. Many of the verses used were taken out of context, and it seems to give the impression that all the spiritual gifts are basically like personality traits and you just need to find which ones are in you. This does not seem like a very biblical view. Yes God uses our natural abilities and strengths and annoints them, but the Spiritual gifts are not based on our abilities, but in His abilities that we can in no way possess.

I believe gifts are divine enablements when necessary to God's purpose. For instance, biblical scholars have tended to interpret "gifts of healings" as individual dispensations of healing (say, a person healed of blindness, for example), rather than a gift "residing" in an individual (such as Oral Roberts, who himself believes that the gifts of healing are from God directly to the person in need, and not channeled through a "healer").

Though I am a fourth generation Pentecostal and am Pentecostal in experience, I am a bit worried that many people seem to think that the gifts of the spirit are somehow permanent; for example, some seem to think that just because they spoke in tongues, prophesied, pastored, evangelized in the past means that no matter how they are currently living they can just switch the gift on and off at will. Jimmy Swaggart is a prime example of what I'm trying to say (not bashing the man, but this is all public knowledge). Here was a man who could speak in tongues, preach, play "anointed" music, and yet was slipping off to New Orleans to be with prostitutes. I'm sorry, but the way I understand Scripture that sort of lifestyle cannot be blessed by God.

Note: My references above to anyone is not meant by any means as an endorsement of them or their ministries.

Brother Gary,

While I agree with your statement that everyone has a gift, I do not believe that is the same as being allowed to use one of the Gifts of the Spirit. Each person is gifted in a special way by God to be used in the church; however, not everyone is given one of the 9 Gifts of the Spirit. vv. 11 says "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." The word severally plays an important role. I undersstand it to mean "any" which brings the understanding of: "to any man as he will." If one was given a Gift to "own" there would be the potential of using it outside the will of God. When I was a young man I saw Brother A.J. Coalter lay hands on and pray for a woman who had fallen down a flight of stairs. Her ankle was obviously broken. When he finished praying for her, she stood and ran up the stairs she had fallen down. Yet, I have seen him lay hands on others and pray and them not be healed. If he were the owner of the Gift then he would be a respector of persons, but as a vessel that God chooses to use the Gift of healing through, God determines who has the need of healing.

The idea that being a pastor is a gift, I do tend to question. It is a calling one receives from God into servant-hood, which requires an anointing to be effective. Without the anointing it is simply oration, visitation, or motivation. There are great orators that can stand behind a pulpit and bring wonderful points out, that simply can not move ones spirit, at the same time there are those who seem to lack the ability to carry on a conversation yet when they stand in the pulpit can bring about the needed results. In fact I wonder if, at times, the calling to be a pastor is not more a curse than a gift...

Pastor Don

PS great post, I would love to see more on this line.

Pastor Don wrote:...While I agree with your statement that everyone has a gift, I do not believe that is the same as being allowed to use one of the Gifts of the Spirit. Each person is gifted in a special way by God to be used in the church; however, not everyone is given one of the 9 Gifts of the Spirit.

But Don, that presupposes that that list of 9 is intended to be an exhaustive list, and I don't believe that. There are probably a dozen ways to categorize or define spiritual gifts, but here's the one I have adopted (flawed though it may be):

I believe there are AT LEAST 20 or 21 spiritual gifts described in scripture, and actually a lot that are suggested but not named. I divide the listed ones into one of three categories...

Motivation Gifts
Ministry Gifts
Manifestation Gifts

I derive these lists from 3 passages:
In Romans 12:6-8 I read "We have (sounds personally possessive to me!) different gifts, according to the grace given us (Given us as individuals I think). If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully."

Out of that passage I see:
Prophesying
Serving
Teaching
Encouraging
Contributing (Giving)
Leadership
Mercy

Then I flip over to Ephesians 4:12 and pick up...
"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,..."

Out of that passage I see:
Apostle
Prophet
Evangelist
Pastor
Teacher (or some say Pastor/Teacher as a single unit)

The third passage is 1st Corinthians 12:8-10, in which we pick up "To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

Out of that passage I see:
Message (word) of wisdom
Message (word) of knowledge
Faith
Gifts of Healing
Miraculous Powers (Miracles)
Prophecy
Distinguishing between spirits (Discernment)
Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues

I think there is also a valid argument that can be made that the scriptures suggest other gifts... Exhortation, Missionary, Administration, Voluntary Poverty, Celibacy, Exorcism, etc.

In my view, Motivation and Ministry Gifts are assigned or given to individuals in the church for the good of all, while Manifestation Gifts may or may not be more temporary in nature, being manifested in any individual God chooses for that moment... though I see exceptions to that at least experientially. I know people God seems to often use to heal specific diseases, yet they have little/no success praying for anything else.

Pastor Don wrote:The idea that being a pastor is a gift, I do tend to question. It is a calling one receives from God into servant-hood, which requires an anointing to be effective. Without the anointing it is simply oration, visitation, or motivation. There are great orators that can stand behind a pulpit and bring wonderful points out, that simply can not move ones spirit, at the same time there are those who seem to lack the ability to carry on a conversation yet when they stand in the pulpit can bring about the needed results. In fact I wonder if, at times, the calling to be a pastor is not more a curse than a gift...

Can you see how the phrase used in Romans 11:29 ("The gifts and calling of God are without repentance..." KJV / "For God's gift and his call are irrevocable...") might tie gifts/callings into a single package?

Pastor Gary wrote:(3) It is often difficult and confusing to separate ones gift from their natural talents or passions: example - a guy who love music and plays guitar with great skill may be said to be talented. That same guy playing under the unction of the Spirit might play the same notes and move people to tears, because He was then exercising a gift.

Or he might even play notes that he couldn't possibly play. When you're only comfortable improvising with two scales, that's easy to do though.


(6) Some gifts are for our personal edification and others are for evangelization. Praying in tongues in your private devotional life edifies noone but you, while prophecy is known to "cause the secrets of their hearts to be laid bare" so that they will fall down in worship and know that God is real.[/quote]

I like, bubba.

Kenya wrote:

I also believe that the "gifts" would be more effective if the "fruits" were exercised more.

Gary wrote:

Can you see how the phrase used in Romans 11:29 ("The gifts and calling of God are without repentance..." KJV / "For God's gift and his call are irrevocable...") might tie gifts/callings into a single package?

I have seen people with a gift (ex.-musically) and people who were called (ex.- to preach) that did not produce fruit. Could the tie that binds be the annointing?
While callings and gifts are given from God, to be annointed requires something on our part--prayer, fasting, study, obedience.[/b]

Crystal wrote:I have seen people with a gift (ex.-musically) and people who were called (ex.- to preach) that did not produce fruit.

Hmmmmmmm.... how can we always tell? Noah worked on a boat for an awfully long time with no converts and not even any rain. During those years, his ministry looked pretty unfruitful to human eyes.

Crystal wrote:Could the tie that binds be the annointing?
While callings and gifts are given from God, to be annointed requires something on our part--prayer, fasting, study, obedience.

God anointed a donkey to speak -- no prayer or study; if it is an anointing, it comes from the one doing he anointing and not from any effort of ours. In fact, I find the anointing is most evident in my ministry at the times when I have had too little time to pray and study! God comes in and extraordinarily blesses my pathetic lack and more than makes up the difference... and He does it in ways that prevent me from taking credit.

Revival Theology wrote:I believe gifts are divine enablements when necessary to God's purpose. For instance, biblical scholars have tended to interpret "gifts of healings" as individual dispensations of healing (say, a person healed of blindness, for example), rather than a gift "residing" in an individual (such as Oral Roberts, who himself believes that the gifts of healing are from God directly to the person in need, and not channeled through a "healer").

Though I am a fourth generation Pentecostal and am Pentecostal in experience, I am a bit worried that many people seem to think that the gifts of the spirit are somehow permanent; for example, some seem to think that just because they spoke in tongues, prophesied, pastored, evangelized in the past means that no matter how they are currently living they can just switch the gift on and off at will. Jimmy Swaggart is a prime example of what I'm trying to say (not bashing the man, but this is all public knowledge). Here was a man who could speak in tongues, preach, play "anointed" music, and yet was slipping off to New Orleans to be with prostitutes. I'm sorry, but the way I understand Scripture that sort of lifestyle cannot be blessed by God.

Note: My references above to anyone is not meant by any means as an endorsement of them or their ministries.

I agree, and this is my concern, when people start seeing themselves as owning the gift, kindof like possessing an ability to do something then it seems God, and godly living are pushed aside. People run to those who "have the gift of healing" or turn to "those that have the gift of prophecy" rather than allowing God to lead them in things. I feel this attitude is doing two things that really hurt the church, 1. people are looking to "their" gifts and exhalting themselves. and 2. People are looking to big name ministers who "have" these gifts rather than seeking God for themselves or looking to their local pastors and ministers.

Pastor Gary,

I guess I am just a little uncomfortable with the way so many things are lumped together and all called "gifts". I see many of the things you have named more as callings or abilities, and although these may be very similar, I think the subtle difference is the ownership and manifestation that we are debating here. Callings of God are like a job to do, and generally draw upon the persons abilities as well as gifts. Abilities are things the person can do on their own, musical talent, public speaking ablitiy, etc. These abilities can be annointed and used by God, but are really in the control of the individual. Then I see gifts as those things that are beyond human ability, and are only manifest by the spirit as the spirit chooses, these gifts I would use I Corinthians 12 as a good example of, but some of the gifts listed are a little confusing because they are so similar to things humanly attainable, like wisdom and knowledge, not all wisdom or knowledge is obtained from God, some can be obtained through natural human learning, but then there is knowledge and wisdom that is purely God given, and that would be what the gift is speaking of.

Pastor Bill wrote:I guess I am just a little uncomfortable with the way so many things are lumped together and all called "gifts". I see many of the things you have named more as callings or abilities, and although these may be very similar, I think the subtle difference is the ownership and manifestation that we are debating here.

Gifts -- Charisma -- simply means "Divine grace." I don't make the same distinction you do, perhaps in part because of this passage...
Exodus 31:1-5 -- "Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: "See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze, in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship."

God took what was perhaps the natural skill or ability of Bezalel and added his anointing, and then Bezalel did his work with supernaturally exceptional skill. Was that a spiritual gift?