Pastors: Casting Out Devils

[pastorables]

Pastor Ables, do you support Paul's above statement? You earlier said "Have you forgotten the Holy Spirit often transformed into a dove? "

I asked for Scripture to support this and you have not responded.

Now I know that only ONCE in the Word does it say (Luke 3:22) And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

If you preach that the Spirit often transformed Himself into a dove then I have no problems telling you that the God of Heaven, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Father of the only begotten Son Jesus Christ did not in any way anoint you. The reason being there is absolutely NO Scripture to support such and you cheapen the Spirit by suggesting such.

Danny,

First, let me say that I've never thought much about how Satan manifested himself to Christ. He could have came as an "angel of light", he could have came as a "dragon", or he could have came as a "serpent". The Bible calls him all of the above. He could have came as Old Slew Foot, but I don't think the Bible calls him that. Is it really that important though?

As for your question about the "dove"? I have not been avoiding you. I'm just really busy this week, and I've used my Jude2 time with discretion.

Maybe the word often was too much? I certainly didn't intend for the spiritual focus to be upon the adverb.

I was thinking mainly of the account of Christ's baptism. I assume I might have been hinging my words upon the church's universal acceptance of the Holy Spirit as a dove.

I could be wrong, but I believe the "star of Bethlehem" is only accounted in Matthew 2:10. Does that make it less scriptural?

Nevertheless, I think you are straining at a gnat. My point is still valid. The Holy Ghost has the power to transform himself into various shapes and entities. Likewise, from my studies, it appears that God gave Satan and his minions a limited power to transform into various shapes and entities. There may not be an abundance of scripture for either thought, but there is enough to present the thought as noteworthy for consideration.

Let me give you an example of what you are doing here. You try to pick my words just as the religious community did to Jesus when they did not agree with him. It's a travesty that many followers became offended and left him due to their misunderstanding of his words for them to "eat his flesh" and "drink his blood", etc, (John 6:56).

I've found through the years that those who "pick words" and "strain for offense" actually have a greater predication than simply an inquiring mind.

I'm truly honored to be able to serve as a stress reliever for you, Gerald, or anyone else who needs my assistance. You can quote me on that.

pa

[dolfan]

Paul, I agree with you that God can do whatever He pleases and for His purposes. My point is that these are stories that get passed down to us. If they're true, however meaningful one may have been for a fellow in the situation you described, there's not much we can do with them. Acknowledge that God is good? Okay, I guess. But, we don't need a blue haze story to do that, do we? The blue sky is plenty evidence of that for the here and now as against a story from an active gathering of believers that a blue mist was present or if half a cat ran the full distance down the aisle and out the door of the church house.

I'm not questioning the truth of these stories. I don't accept them as true, but really whether I believe them is wholly unrelated to them being true. If they are true, wonderful. But, so what if they are? They reveal little or nothing about what God will have us to do in the world we live in today. That's altogether different from those times in the Bible where these manifestations happen and we have the scriptural context that accompanies them. A man who sees a blue haze and receives it as confirmation of God's closeness is significant because, if God did indeed do that, God is active in that man's life. But, as a teaching tool, if I know nothing of the man's life, situation, and no reliable Godly author who's statements have been proved reliable over time will package that encounter for me with reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness, then again, it is for me a sounding brass and tinkling cymbal. On the other hand, when I read about the day of Pentecost and the tongues of fire I see the significance of a God who keeps His promises to His people and who enables them to do what He said He would enable them to do. That's the missing ingredient in these kinds of stories. I don't really care if they are true unless some other applicable and reliably teachable truth that transforms or equips is linked with it. And, for me, I've yet to hear of one that does that.

Pastor Don, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not calling Pastor Ables a liar or anything. Far from it! He's my friend, too. I've already said that I don't believe these accounts about blue hazes and half-cat demons and what have you. That doesn't mean I don't believe Richie. Because he believes a person's story and I don't means nothing except we have different filters about stories people tell.

My mother told stories for as long as I can remember about seeing a snake split itself apart and put itself back together. Well, that is just insane. She was a superstitious woman until the last couple of years of her life, but all of my life including after she was saved she was a bit of a nut. But my grandmother told the same story. Was it true? No. It wasn't. Do I think my mother a liar for having told it and believing it? No. I think she was young and impressionable and ignorant and believed in ghosts and all sorts of crazy junk.

Here's my point: when I hear my mother's story, I know better because I knew her. When Richie hears his grandmother, who by his account (and I believe him) was a holy woman of God, tell about a half-cat, he believes it because he knows her. My mother in law is a faithful, Godly woman like Richie's grandmother. She has told me stories like that, too. Blue hazes and all that. Different things. I don't believe they're true. I think she believes them, and I am certain she recalls something happening and all that. But, I'm content to let that story stand on its own two legs because it doesn't mean anything to me. It doesn't counsel me to act in any particular way now. I'm glad for whoever might've witnessed it, although I'm honest to say I have no earthly idea what they may have gotten from it. As well, I'm doubtful that it happened, and certain that it doesn't matter either way.

This brings me round again to my earlier post. The power of these stories is questionable. Pastor Don, we can take the fact that God's power is demonstrated over the demonic when we see a changed life. I don't see what a blue mist does to that truth. Share the stories of change. Please! But, when someone hears from an old recounting of a service from long ago about the phenomenon of x,y or z, I just don't see where that has the power that the truth of a changed life presents.


.... and I honestly give no credence to Gamaliel for his "test". He was an unbeliever. His authority to speak on how to determine the truth is in grave and serious jeopardy since he rejected the Truth that stood bodily before him. His "test", as it is, is one for skeptics, not believers. It is an insulting remark, not a wise, sage piece of advice.

[MacUser]

But by golly it'll be preached in Miss-uh-ssippi as gospel wont it???

Gerald, I love you man... but on behalf of MS.. this statement is a load of smokin' crap. Clarified or not.

Stop beating others up over personal issues. These people are actually your friends and not your enemies and the only thing you are cutting with your fancy narrow sword slicing moves is yourself. I still love you even if you are the village idiot here as it takes one to know one.

Come on down to "Miss-uh-ssippi" and give me a hand sometime. I'll show you how to use the right tool for the right application and how not to swing a sledgehammer when a narrow chisel is needed

[Gerald Creasy]

But by golly it'll be preached in Miss-uh-ssippi as gospel wont it???

Gerald, I love you man... but on behalf of MS.. this statement is a load of smokin' crap. Clarified or not.

I'll let you know whether it was "crap" or not when Pastor Ables admits or denies that he Preached hearsay and superstition as Biblical truth.

If he didnt, I'll apologize.

If he did....well...

[Pastor Gary]

But by golly it'll be preached in Miss-uh-ssippi as gospel wont it???

Gerald, I love you man... but on behalf of MS.. this statement is a load of smokin' crap. Clarified or not.

I'll let you know whether it was "crap" or not when Pastor Ables admits or denies that he Preached hearsay and superstition as Biblical truth.

If he didnt, I'll apologize.

If he did....well...

Just wondering if it will EVER be possible to have an issues-based discussion on Jude2 that doesn't get personalized and degenerate into "yo mama" name calling and sandbox challenges?

[Gerald Creasy]

Just wondering if it will EVER be possible to have an issues-based discussion on Jude2 that doesn't get personalized and degenerate into "yo mama" name calling and sandbox challenges?

Maybe. But saying a demon manifested as a Cat established the level of the discussion from the "git go".

[Pastor Gary]

Just wondering if it will EVER be possible to have an issues-based discussion on Jude2 that doesn't get personalized and degenerate into "yo mama" name calling and sandbox challenges?

Maybe. But saying a demon manifested as a Cat established the level of the discussion from the "git go".

And as soon as it moves to "WHAT?? You must be nuts, you heretic!" kind of rhetoric (I made that up) the topic is over, and I stop reading or wanting to join in. Could those exchanges be done in PMs so the TOPIC can move forward? Worth consideration?

[Gerald Creasy]

And as soon as it moves to "WHAT?? You must be nuts, you heretic!" kind of rhetoric (I made that up) the topic is over, and I stop reading or wanting to join in. Could those exchanges be done in PMs so the TOPIC can move forward? Worth consideration?

Then you're mailbox will pile up with protests of harrassment.

I think it is a matter of perception.

A tale of a Demon manifesting as a cat IS subjective...it IS fokloreish.
Both of these can be seen as insults.

True.....I did hit on Missuhsippi and hicks....and until they spend a little more time in the li-berry....I'll probrably struggle with not poking at 'em.


PS If the story had been the demon had manifested as a pineapple I'd be cracking on Hawaii.

[RamboPreacher]

I believed him, cause cats are the devil, right? they must have just realized that. (fun poking and sarcasm, intended, here...)

and BTW - what are you guys BOTH doing up at this hour. I thought I was the only (or really one of a very few) morning person around here.

[Full Quiver]

Pastor Ables, just because you say that both the Holy Ghost and the devil have the power to TRANSFORM themselves into things doesn't make it so.

Give me Scriptural support that the SPIRIT ever did such? You ignored my point about he descended like a dove descends but was not actually a dove. If HE had came as a dove then the onlookers would have thought a bird had landed on Jesus but NO, they knew it was the very Spirit of God.

The Word tells us that Satan transforms himself into an angel of Light. He is a deceiver. Just because he used a serpent in the Garden of Eden doesn't mean he transformed himself into a serpent. I believe he possessed that serpent that day and I believe we have enough Bible to prove that he can do such but we do not have Scriptural evidence that he has ever himself became a serpent or any other animal.

Sure Jesus called him a dragon, etc. but Jesus also called the Pharisees a few names, brood of vipers comes to mind. Were the Pharisees literal vipers?

[Dr. Ron]

Okay, the first recollection I have of the casting out of demons was when I ws about 5 years old. We had an old basement church,.,,typical for that era.

It had two wood burning stoves for heat. A woman got up during the song service and began to walk around saying "This is my power"...speaking of some who were dancing in the spirit and others who were speaking in tongues. She became very beligerent and attacked my dad scratching his face and saying...."you child of God" you can do nothing to me."

I saw him go over to a glowing red wood stove, push the top open with his hands, take out a double hand full of buring coals and walk around the building with them burning in his hands. He put them back into the stove and laid hands on her and rebuked the devil. She screamed and fell into a heap on the floor. When she recovered a couple of hours later, dad had preached with her laying on the floor. She humbled herself and gave her heart to Christ.....she died a member of that church.

Now, I didn't see any cats or anything. I didn't see a blue haze, but I DID see my dad handle that fire and he had no blisters, no soot, his shirt (white) was not burned, frayed, or singed(sp)....So, I know the power of God is available. He can do as he wills. Gerald's grandfather got saved under my grandmother's preaching while in a revival where my aunt handled a rattlesnake. It bite her. She almost died,....but preached from her bed until the venom drained out the same holes it came in.....

Now, do we need to make a show of these things? No....did they happen? Yes.....and the purpose....For that moment, God knew the hearts of the people and the minds of the people. He knew what it took to touch them.

So, let us agree that some things are in the flesh (too much so) but there are the unexplainable things of God that happen because He wills it....

I like that about God....can't box Him in,.

[Gerald Creasy]

I certainly believe people can be demonicly possessed, oppressed, and even influenced.

I believe Ministers can cast them out (though they are getting few and far between).


The PROBLEM I have is this:

The claim was made -on family hearsay- that a demon came out of a person and manifested itself as a cat.

What if it manifested itself as a dog?

Or How about a bull?

Maybe a hippo? A slightly pinkish elephant?

Where does one draw the line and say that is foolishness???

THE LINE would differ from person to person.

YET should not the line of WHAT IS and WHAT IS NOT be established by scripture?

Elsewise you have no measure by which to judge the veracity of a report If someone were to come to you and say "We cast out a demon and it manifested itself as an Gurnsey and we're keeping her around cause we need the milk."


And what of the cat in question?
Did it escape into the Mississipi night and transform himself into Elvis Presley therby destroying the souls of millions by birthing Rock and Roll (Ohhhhh That'll preach)
Did it find a lost tabby and there are now generations of Mississipi cats who are half-demon and half-cat (Wouldnt that then be half Gog, half Mog?)

Is that the REAL reason cats are so impersonal and have slitty snake eyes--in the bright light!!!??

In the backwoods it is common to attribute evil things to cats. When i was a kid local black kids called me SIN...I had a black cat (I still do but it's a different cat). They would leave if the cat jumped on the porch while I would laugh at them. I was told as a kid that a cat would purposely insinuate itself around a baby or toddle and "steal it's breath."

Folklore and superstition.

This is the reason I made the Miss-UH-ssipi comment.

[paul]

Okay, the first recollection I have of the casting out of demons was when I ws about 5 years old. We had an old basement church,.,,typical for that era.

It had two wood burning stoves for heat. A woman got up during the song service and began to walk around saying "This is my power"...speaking of some who were dancing in the spirit and others who were speaking in tongues. She became very beligerent and attacked my dad scratching his face and saying...."you child of God" you can do nothing to me."

I saw him go over to a glowing red wood stove, push the top open with his hands, take out a double hand full of buring coals and walk around the building with them burning in his hands. He put them back into the stove and laid hands on her and rebuked the devil. She screamed and fell into a heap on the floor. When she recovered a couple of hours later, dad had preached with her laying on the floor. She humbled herself and gave her heart to Christ.....she died a member of that church.

Now, I didn't see any cats or anything. I didn't see a blue haze, but I DID see my dad handle that fire and he had no blisters, no soot, his shirt (white) was not burned, frayed, or singed(sp)....So, I know the power of God is available. He can do as he wills. Gerald's grandfather got saved under my grandmother's preaching while in a revival where my aunt handled a rattlesnake. It bite her. She almost died,....but preached from her bed until the venom drained out the same holes it came in.....

Now, do we need to make a show of these things? No....did they happen? Yes.....and the purpose....For that moment, God knew the hearts of the people and the minds of the people. He knew what it took to touch them.

So, let us agree that some things are in the flesh (too much so) but there are the unexplainable things of God that happen because He wills it....

I like that about God....can't box Him in,.

Well put my friend..

Heading to the airport for that long flight to Japan and then to the Philippines.

[dolfan]

And, Dr. Ron, I believe your story is true. Why? Well, first, because there's a context that is totally consistent with the Bible. A woman who is not a Christian, obviously disturbed by what I have no problem acknowledging is evil and oppressive, and who, upon challenging God's power and claiming it for herself, is met head on with a rebuke and a sign that not only relieves her but ultimately leads her to faith. What is not NT about that? Nothing. That makes sense. It also makes sense in a physical way --- we've all seen marvelous displays on TV or what have you of people walking on coals and not getting their feet burned or even blistered. Now, whether that's trickery or something insidious I don't know - maybe neither one. But, there's credible reason to know that a man can carry hot coals and not get burned, and it is also credible to believe that the God of the Bible who is in charge of all of the elements of the universe can cause them to act in a way contrary to common experience tells us because it suits His declared purposes.

That is a wholly different circumstance and story than the things I've been told over the years.

And, I go back to this question -- what do I take away from that story? Well, I take this -- that when people are acting apostolically with regards to evangelism, miracles happen to confirm the power of God's Word to the unbelieving. I believe that. And, if that makes me a pentecostal in some way, so be it. Probably not enough to suit most folks here.

[dolfan]

PS If the story had been the demon had manifested as a pineapple I'd be cracking on Hawaii.

I saw a whole football coach get run out of a state not long ago. Care to crack a few Auburn jokes?