Back to the Future. Talks of TC

[SBW]

I can understand why many want to have an institution like TC up and running to represent the COGOP like Lee represents COG or the AG schools represent their churches.

But let's be honest for a minute about the track record that the COGOP has in running these things. How much time, energy and finances went into establishing TC back in the day, only to see it boarded up and shut down with no input from the people who gave financially and otherwise to establish it?

How much was spent on the tabernacle, only to see it closed and now sold to another organization that fills it every week, instead of once a year?

How much support in finances and otherwise was given to build up VOS, only to have it handed off to another organization, once again with no input from those who gave to see it established?

All good points, and I would have totally agreed with you in the past.... but I beleive our current leadership has a great vision and will do a great job at restoring the college.

By the way, the tabernacle is filled every every week...with shoppers. There is a grocery store there now.

[beckrl]

I can understand why many want to have an institution like TC up and running to represent the COGOP like Lee represents COG or the AG schools represent their churches.

But let's be honest for a minute about the track record that the COGOP has in running these things. How much time, energy and finances went into establishing TC back in the day, only to see it boarded up and shut down with no input from the people who gave financially and otherwise to establish it?

How much was spent on the tabernacle, only to see it closed and now sold to another organization that fills it every week, instead of once a year?

How much support in finances and otherwise was given to build up VOS, only to have it handed off to another organization, once again with no input from those who gave to see it established?

Despite the fact that the number of the people at the top (the GP) has increased from one to few, the COGOP is still a top-down, hierarchy where the members have essentially no voice unless the leaders feel like listening.

One person asked how many pastors would take up an offering at their churches or otherwise support a new TC. Why on earth should local churches and members support any initiative by GH when experience has told it's members again and again that the COGOP leadership will take their money to build something up only to see it mismanaged and lost to another organization who can manage it better.

I know that some will protest that things have changed and that we should trust the current leadership. When (or if) those changes are demonstrated in such a way that trust is earned, that trust will be given, not before.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

Sam
That's putting a perspective on the history of cogop. Wow and hitting a home run. IMO "Mismanaged with poor leadership from HG" and the people that funded these didn't have a voice.

I remenber in the assembly the year that the closing of the tabernacle came up. It was as if we didn't have enough money to past the fire inspection, we must close and sell

I often think of the talents!

[Phil Hoover]

and no COMPELLING reason to "reinvent the wheel" and particularly NOT IN CLEVELAND, TENNESSEE...

If the Church of God of Prophecy wants to establish a college in another locale.....ANOTHER STATE...maybe even out west, or the Midwest, then go for it.

Cleveland, Tennessee DOES NOT NEED another church college.

LEE UNIVERSITY is doing a great job....leave well enough, alone.

[DeWayneTN]

If the Church of God of Prophecy wants to establish a college in another locale.....ANOTHER STATE...maybe even out west, or the Midwest, then go for it.

Thanks for your permission!

[Pastorbps]

This whole argument goes back to whether the COGOP should exist as a separate and distinct entity within Christianity. Why have separate churches from the COG? Why have separate missions departments?
Why a separate headquarters and separate leadership staffs (Overseers and department heads)?

For that matter, why does the COG exist separately from the Assemblies of God? There may be minor differences here and there but we're all one and these minor differences shouldn't separate us? Why do these Pentecostal organizations exist separate from the Baptists? Why not join together with them? After all, we're all one. Is it doctrinal distinctiveness and are these doctrinal distinctives important enough to keep us as separate entities? Why not overlook it all?

My point is, we condemn the COGOP for wanting to exist separately with its own school and other departments but it is okay for the COG and Assemblies and the Southern Baptists and etc and etc to exist separately. We even commend them for starting their own schools and don't even get me started about how we glorify the independent churches for their "forward looking" vision for education and missions.

It is almost as though we have a serious "Inferiority Complex." Everybody else is great, wonderful, visionaries. Everybody is great EXCEPT FOR the COGOP. It doesn't matter how much we change, it will still be the step-child to many. "You're awful because of this, this, and this." So the COGOP changes it. Does that change people's perspective? Nope. "You were awful and you're still awful. You have no reason to exist."

We've spent a decade talking about "Vision Casting" and we still don't know whether we should even exist. I told Bro. Murray 20 years ago, "We have taken away one vision from the COGOP but we never replaced it with another vision. (I'm not talking about the vision for souls so don't wax all super-spiritual on me). I'm talking about the vision for why this organization exists SEPARATELY and DISTINCTLY from other Christian organizations.
People have mentioned the closing of the college, the closing of VOS, but let's not forget BTI, the U.S. orphanages, the recording studios, and on and on. It looks like we're having a fire sale. Downsize, shutdown, eliminate. It gives the appearance of an organization going out of business. We talk about the lack of funds but you have a lack of funds for a reason. Eugene Weakley nailed it many years ago at a Tennessee State Convention "No one will give themselves wholly to something they don't wholly believe in."

I commend those who want to open a school but perhaps we should decide whether we should exist before we decide whether a school should exist.

Restoring an organization distiveness would go a long way to solving our problems but (sorry to be fatalistic) I don't know if we can find that.

[Phil Hoover]

but the "college endeavor" failed....it was abandoned...underfunded, etc...

Why go down that road again?

Why "reinvent the wheel"?

[Rascal]

Perhaps getting an understanding of the Church's need for a college would help. Where are the current pastors/ministers being trained for COGOP? How many new pastors enter the work force yearly? What is the demand for young ministers? All of the COGOP pastors in this area are over 55. I don't know any COGOP young ministers. Where do the state bishops get new pastors? Perhaps this is more of a problem than the average member knows..........Did they (Leadership) not see this coming?

[ImaPK]

I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Phil. As an outsider looking in and living in Cleveland "in the day" TC went from being a "Christian College" to being a "party school", a way to get away from mom and dad under the guise of "going to a Christian College" yet several of them had fake IDs and sat in bars with ME in Chattanooga and drank. The feeling I always got from those associated with TC was that TC was a "Lee College wannabe". Lee College has several "high dollar" donors in the COG,has several full scholarships to offer,does not have a "closed campus" and like someone said is not made up entirely of COG students. TC had no "high dollar" donors,student aid,a "closed campus" and was about 99% COGOP kids. It was doomed then and it would fail again. Sorry if I stepped on some TC Alum "toes"(and I have family who went there)but I think,like Phil said,it's a BONEHEAD idea. And I don't believe a different HQ Admin will make a bit of difference.(putting my "steel suit" on now )

[Rob]

I can understand why many want to have an institution like TC up and running to represent the COGOP like Lee represents COG or the AG schools represent their churches.

But let's be honest for a minute about the track record that the COGOP has in running these things. How much time, energy and finances went into establishing TC back in the day, only to see it boarded up and shut down with no input from the people who gave financially and otherwise to establish it?

How much was spent on the tabernacle, only to see it closed and now sold to another organization that fills it every week, instead of once a year?

How much support in finances and otherwise was given to build up VOS, only to have it handed off to another organization, once again with no input from those who gave to see it established?

All good points, and I would have totally agreed with you in the past.... but I beleive our current leadership has a great vision and will do a great job at restoring the college.

By the way, the tabernacle is filled every every week...with shoppers. There is a grocery store there now.

Is that to say the Bishop Tomlinson, Bishop Murray didn't have great vision? I would dare to say that Bishop Murray was without question the greatest visionary this church has every had IMHO.

Thanks for turning us to the harvest something I think has been lost in the last few years.

[SBW]

I can understand why many want to have an institution like TC up and running to represent the COGOP like Lee represents COG or the AG schools represent their churches.

But let's be honest for a minute about the track record that the COGOP has in running these things. How much time, energy and finances went into establishing TC back in the day, only to see it boarded up and shut down with no input from the people who gave financially and otherwise to establish it?

How much was spent on the tabernacle, only to see it closed and now sold to another organization that fills it every week, instead of once a year?

How much support in finances and otherwise was given to build up VOS, only to have it handed off to another organization, once again with no input from those who gave to see it established?

All good points, and I would have totally agreed with you in the past.... but I beleive our current leadership has a great vision and will do a great job at restoring the college.

By the way, the tabernacle is filled every every week...with shoppers. There is a grocery store there now.

Is that to say the Bishop Tomlinson, Bishop Murray didn't have great vision? I would dare to say that Bishop Murray was without question the greatest visionary this church has every had IMHO.

Thanks for turning us to the harvest something I think has been lost in the last few years.

No not at all. I was just saying that I think our current leadership can handle this restoration process. Bishop Tomlinson is one of my personal heroes, and I appreciate Bishop Murray also.

[Cpt. Jack]

As an outsider looking in and living in Cleveland "in the day" TC went from being a "Christian College" to being a "party school", a way to get away from mom and dad under the guise of "going to a Christian College" yet several of them had fake IDs and sat in bars with ME in Chattanooga and drank.

ImaPK, Im sure glad you set the record stright. Its no wonder the school failed, with all the PARTING go on. Some how I missed that.
But Its nice to know your opinion of the TC family.

I think the work here is HYPOCRITS.

Cpt Jack

[dolfan]

As an outsider looking in and living in Cleveland "in the day" TC went from being a "Christian College" to being a "party school", a way to get away from mom and dad under the guise of "going to a Christian College" yet several of them had fake IDs and sat in bars with ME in Chattanooga and drank.

ImaPK, Im sure glad you set the record stright. Its no wonder the school failed, with all the PARTING go on. Some how I missed that.
But Its nice to know your opinion of the TC family.

I think the work here is HYPOCRITS.

Cpt Jack

I've got a question. How is a college supposed to stop its students from doing what they want to do off campus? I spent two years at TC at its end. Did people do stuff that was sinful? Well, yeah, helloooo! There was fornicatin' and drinkin' and smokin' and no small amount of masturbatin' and fondlin' I'm pretty sure. A Christian school is the PERFECT place for all that to happen because of the ever present battle of hormones vs. freedom vs. maturing. There's a lot of all that going on, but you believe, work, prepare and hope that maturity and purity redeem the time in the end. I'm confident that's the case for most who ever went there, for some more than others like in anything else. Is it hypocrisy? No doubt. But, isn't it also more likely that most of what happened was less about living two lives in order to hide one (which is hypocrisy) than it was about learning to live one life by facing and eventually thwarting a second, dark one (which is not pretty but the way most folks come to maturity)?? Not advocating that sin should abound so that grace can abound more, but I'm simply saying that I think that any Christian college will face this stuff because it is attended by, you know.....people. And, maybe I'm crazy, but I would rather have my young loved one or young hopefully future leader to find their legs in a place where the equipping for life is going on than in some other place that doesn't give two hoots if they live like Tiger Woods. (See, I even managed to get a Tiger crack in there. That's almost too easy.)

[ImaPK]

As an outsider looking in and living in Cleveland "in the day" TC went from being a "Christian College" to being a "party school", a way to get away from mom and dad under the guise of "going to a Christian College" yet several of them had fake IDs and sat in bars with ME in Chattanooga and drank.

ImaPK, Im sure glad you set the record stright. Its no wonder the school failed, with all the PARTING go on. Some how I missed that.
But Its nice to know your opinion of the TC family.

I think the work here is HYPOCRITS.

Cpt Jack

I've got a question. How is a college supposed to stop its students from doing what they want to do off campus? I spent two years at TC at its end. Did people do stuff that was sinful? Well, yeah, helloooo! There was fornicatin' and drinkin' and smokin' and no small amount of masturbatin' and fondlin' I'm pretty sure. A Christian school is the PERFECT place for all that to happen because of the ever present battle of hormones vs. freedom vs. maturing. There's a lot of all that going on, but you believe, work, prepare and hope that maturity and purity redeem the time in the end. I'm confident that's the case for most who ever went there, for some more than others like in anything else. Is it hypocrisy? No doubt. But, isn't it also more likely that most of what happened was less about living two lives in order to hide one (which is hypocrisy) than it was about learning to live one life by facing and eventually thwarting a second, dark one (which is not pretty but the way most folks come to maturity)?? Not advocating that sin should abound so that grace can abound more, but I'm simply saying that I think that any Christian college will face this stuff because it is attended by, you know.....people. And, maybe I'm crazy, but I would rather have my young loved one or young hopefully future leader to find their legs in a place where the equipping for life is going on than in some other place that doesn't give two hoots if they live like Tiger Woods. (See, I even managed to get a Tiger crack in there. That's almost too easy.)

dolfan you were there at the end(your words). I went to Senior Appreciation Day back in 1973. At that time you had to be back on campus by 10PM. There was one dorm seperated by the lobby in the center, guys on one side, gals on the other. The dorm monitors DID their job. Lights out by 11PM. If you were going home for the weekend you had to sign out when you left and be back by 10PM on Sunday night. If you had a job in Cleveland and you worked past 10PM you had to have permission from the dean. They closed and locked the gate(swing bar)at midnight and if you weren't on campus by then you were called to the office to explain why. If you went to the "new gym" to play hoops you couldn't wear shorts. You were "requested"(read REQUIRED)to attend one of the local COGOP churches. These were just a few of the "guidelines" that TC had "back in the day". I decided then that TC wasn't for me. By the time that TC closed(your time) I would have fit right in if I could have "turned back the clock" to 18 years old. It's a "pipe dream" if people think that TC can "be what it was" in 1973. TC's enrollment didn't start growing until after the "guidelines" were loosened. Then COGOP started building up TC and spent more then they were taking in. Like I said TC was a Lee College "wannabe". Before they closed it down there was plans in the works to make it a four year college. Give me a break.
Don't get me wrong, TC was good for some. My youngest brother met his wife there. If I'm not mistaken she was "Miss TC" or whatever it's called. I hope you weren't one of the guys that I had to go down and talk to Mel Hyatt and Jerry Adams about. Long story.
Like I said I have "no dog in this one" so if they want to reopen TC go ahead, I just think it's a HUGE mistake.

[Cpt. Jack]

Dolfan

I've got a question. How is a college supposed to stop its students from doing what they want to do off campus? I spent two years at TC at its end. Did people do stuff that was sinful? Well, yeah, helloooo! There was fornicatin' and drinkin' and smokin' and no small amount of masturbatin' and fondlin' I'm pretty sure. A Christian school is the PERFECT place for all that to happen because of the ever present battle of hormones vs. freedom vs. maturing. There's a lot of all that going on, but you believe, work, prepare and hope that maturity and purity redeem the time in the end.

Dolfan,
the answer to your question is THEY CANT. Human nature being as it is Im sure people engage in all sorts of activitys.

My experiance was nothing like anything you or ImPAK have stated. It may be I just had my head in the sand about what was going on there. For me it was a special place and time in my life where God revealed Himself to me.

Cpt Jack

[DeWayneTN]

My experiance was nothing like anything you or ImPAK have stated. It may be I just had my head in the sand about what was going on there. For me it was a special place and time in my life where God revealed Himself to me.

Me too.

It's downright silly and unfair to paint us all with such broad strokes.