Our New Sanctuary Plans

[darylscook]

Hey, we are about to build a New Sanctuary. Here is our drawings.

It is our Donate to New Sanctuary Page, so you can ignore that part. But, It has our Drawings on it. Do you guys see any major problems with our layout.

God Bless You
Pastor Daryl

[dolfan]

Is that one building going to be your whole church building? Only ask because there are no classrooms or anything in the drawing.

The only thing that jumped out to me was that the men's room is adjacent to the nursery and the womens's room is detached and across the foyer. I know that the women's room is a little larger and that's probably why you put it where you did.

I see the area in the other "front" corner looks open, maybe a lounge/visitor area? Could you enlarge your nursery by putting it there and making the lounge area where the nursery is? Flip the women's room orientation 180 degrees? That way your moms can duck in and out of the nursery much easier if any kind of restroom attention is needed.

A sitting area is nice, but from what I've seen, in a church that is squeezing purpose from every square inch as yours is doing, the folks who come are less likely to spend long, frequent periods in a sitting area anyway. I think it may wind up as wasted space for you. Looks like you'll seat about 110 people comfortably in a single service? (Hard for me to tell, but that's a guess.) A greeting/sitting area will probably do well for you in the smaller space; I would think families with nursery age kids would appreciate the bigger nursery space with the mom's room next to it more. But, that drawing is really nicely done. Good work.

[darylscook]

Is that one building going to be your whole church building? Only ask because there are no classrooms or anything in the drawing.

Thanks! No, we have a current building. We will use the old building for SS, Youth, Children, etc. We hope to one day, tear down the old building and build a new Family Life Center attached to the sanctuary.

The only thing that jumped out to me was that the men's room is adjacent to the nursery and the womens's room is detached and across the foyer. I know that the women's room is a little larger and that's probably why you put it where you did.

Yes, the size of the restrooms caused us to move them. We decided that we didn't want a door b/n the nursery and restroom directly. So, if you've got to come out a door into the foyer anyway, what difference does 3 feet make. We will have a sink in the Nursery. But, I'll mention that to our Sanctuary committee and make sure we don't need to rethink that.

I see the area in the other "front" corner looks open, maybe a lounge/visitor area? Could you enlarge your nursery by putting it there and making the lounge area where the nursery is? Flip the women's room orientation 180 degrees? That way your moms can duck in and out of the nursery much easier if any kind of restroom attention is needed.

A sitting area is nice, but from what I've seen, in a church that is squeezing purpose from every square inch as yours is doing, the folks who come are less likely to spend long, frequent periods in a sitting area anyway. I think it may wind up as wasted space for you. Looks like you'll seat about 110 people comfortably in a single service? (Hard for me to tell, but that's a guess.) A greeting/sitting area will probably do well for you in the smaller space; I would think families with nursery age kids would appreciate the bigger nursery space with the mom's room next to it more. But, that drawing is really nicely done. Good work.

Thanks, We have tried to minimize wasted space. In discussions, we actually increased our foyer space. We will eventually move the seating area to window, and put an information area there along with an LCD TV on the diagonal wall..

We will use Pew Chairs, and if we put them exactly as they are spaced in the drawing, It will seat 140. (And They are spaced very OPEN. There is 3 ft from the front of one seat to the back of the front seat). We have looked a different layouts and a tight (but comfortable enough) layout would yield about 200 pew Chairs. This drawing yields a smaller number of required parking spaces.

Thanks for the input. !!!!!!!

[paul]

Daryl

Will you spend much time in the office at church? Not sure how much conuseling you do. Just seems a bit small to be really functional.

[darylscook]

Daryl

Will you spend much time in the office at church? Not sure how much conuseling you do. Just seems a bit small to be really functional.

That office will be for morning reading and praying. It will have separate a/c and heat. Thanks for the thoughts! Maybe is should be a little bigger.

[TonyT]

Maybe make room for a sound booth and make provisions for wiring and cabling, even if that is not planned in the immediate future - it looks like the stairs go up, so is that where it might be?

[Billy n NC]

Maybe make room for a sound booth and make provisions for wiring and cabling, even if that is not planned in the immediate future - it looks like the stairs go up, so is that where it might be?

You beat me to it.. Tony..

Daryl plz dont tell me you guys are putting the AV booth UPSTAIRS....

We ran 4 3" conduits from the right side of our stage under the floor to our soundbooth.

Also make sure that the stage is high enough that someone could crawl under it to add more mic/speaker jacks if needed..

[darylscook]

Daryl plz dont tell me you guys are putting the AV booth UPSTAIRS....

Ok, I won't tell you...... But, most of the new churches down here have the A/V in the center back upstairs..... Why is that a problem?

[Pastor Gary]

Daryl plz dont tell me you guys are putting the AV booth UPSTAIRS....

Ok, I won't tell you...... But, most of the new churches down here have the A/V in the center back upstairs..... Why is that a problem?

Ever been to a concert? The sound is controlled from the floor, at the same level as the audience (in this case congregation) because the sound engineers need to hear exactly what the crowd hears. It never sounds the same from a room, windowed booth or loft.

[Full Quiver]

How many members do you have?

How many attenders do you have on average?

IS this layout allowing for maximum growth?

I know and understand that building cost are outrageous and with that said it would be better to overbuild NOW instead of rebuilding LATER. It's more cost effective to build a larger building than to have to build a second building.

[darylscook]

How many members do you have?

How many attenders do you have on average?

IS this layout allowing for maximum growth?

I know and understand that building cost are outrageous and with that said it would be better to overbuild NOW instead of rebuilding LATER. It's more cost effective to build a larger building than to have to build a second building.

Danny, we were running about 25 18 months ago. We are averaging 50 right now; we have 40 members. The new building will seat 200 comfortably.

[Billy n NC]

Daryl plz dont tell me you guys are putting the AV booth UPSTAIRS....

Ok, I won't tell you...... But, most of the new churches down here have the A/V in the center back upstairs..... Why is that a problem?

Ever been to a concert? The sound is controlled from the floor, at the same level as the audience (in this case congregation) because the sound engineers need to hear exactly what the crowd hears. It never sounds the same from a room, windowed booth or loft.

Daryl, The answer to "Why is that a Problem?"

Supercalfragilistic HUGE.... You will constantly have squeal and feed back because in the booth they will not hear it till its louder. Volume will also be a constant issue.. It will sound okay to the sound guys/gals but possibly way to Loud to the audience.

Not to mention the Sound guys have will have to go up and down the stairs numerous times b4 each service..

Lighting, Computer Projection Video switching etc could be upstairs but the sound booth is best at center back of the church.

I know several churches here in NC that did the crows nest and then moved it back down to floor..

I will say this.. if its a done deal. Make the Booth open air like an balcony and not a hole in the wall (window)...

[Paully_44]

Daryl plz dont tell me you guys are putting the AV booth UPSTAIRS....

Ok, I won't tell you...... But, most of the new churches down here have the A/V in the center back upstairs..... Why is that a problem?

Ever been to a concert? The sound is controlled from the floor, at the same level as the audience (in this case congregation) because the sound engineers need to hear exactly what the crowd hears. It never sounds the same from a room, windowed booth or loft.

Hearing where the congregation does is crucial, IMHO.
I'd check with a local music store or vendor. Ask to have a consultant come out and/or check out your drawings. Get their feedback on where to put the sound booth, where to hang your speakers, stage lights etc. They'll charge an hourly fee but for a couple hours you would get some invaluable information from a profession who could save you alot of grief in the future.

[Full Quiver]

So in a year and a half you have doubled in size which means that you could easily outgrow this sanctuary in 3-6 years at your current rate of growth.
Consider that; don't box yourself in.

We have an open air sound booth in our balcony. We fit more people in our balcony than on our floor. We do have a sound desk on stage, off to the side, that deals specifically with the musicians and singers and their sound.

Our video is in a booth outside the sanctuary with cameras throughout the sanctuary.

[Billy n NC]

I started a thread about soundbooth upstairs over at
Church Media Net.. Got quite a few replies.


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Ebroach Monday, March 26th, 2012 11:56 PM
Upstairs Sound booth

Do any of you guys know of magazine/white paper etc articles concerning the Pros/Cons of having a sound booth upstairs at rear of sanctuary..

Got a friend fixing to build church and that is where they are wanting to put it..

Arlin Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 12:16 AM
http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/wswc.html

bpalermini Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 01:28 AM
Just tell them we all voted and they are wrong. Main floor center is what the experts said is best. Sound guy needs to hear what most of the audience hears.

Brad Weber Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpalermini (Post 314843)
Just tell them we all voted and they are wrong. Main floor center is what the experts said is best. Sound guy needs to hear what most of the audience hears.
Although many suggest main audience area and off center, in fact that is what Curt suggests in the document Arlin referenced.

Curt's article addresses several of the related technical aspects but it does not address the aspect of how this can affect the people. I always find it rather ironic to work with churches that are very focused on the worship experience but then want to isolate their volunteers from sharing in that experience. In many cases, both the people and the production can benefit from their being part of the congregation rather than being physically segregated from it.

In my experience resistance to having a mix position in the listener area is usually related to either ignorance of the related issues, which you can hopefully address through education, to the audio quality not being a priority, which seems to perhaps suggest a larger issue, or to having conflicting interests (e.g. the Architect or Interior Designer that doesn't like the way it looks), in which case they may not be open to any discussion. If people are willing to listen then the value of the person mixing hearing what the listeners hear is usually not that difficult to convey. If they're not willing to listen then all the articles and white papers in the world may not help.

mrozman22000 Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 12:07 PM
Speaking from experience, the upstairs booth is not the way to go if you can prevent it. Our soundroom was implemented in the early 80's in the attic area above the Sunday School rooms at the rear of the sanctuary. I have two 3x2 windows that allow me to see and "hear" (?) the audio. It is like a reverse funnel, trying to scoop the house audio through the windows to get a sense of what is going on. To truly judge what the audience hears, I have to stick my head out the window and lean over the edge a little bit. One other issue, is that being nearly eye level with the speakers, I get a larger dose of the SPL coming straight at me, so when I do "hear" the outside sound it's still not what the audience hears. Unfortunately the designers did not take this into account when the church was built in the 60's

Brad Weber Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrozman22000 (Post 314861)
Unfortunately the designers did not take this into account when the church was built in the 60's
You have to consider that the role and function of audio in churches was also typically quite different at that time. The challenge is often that some Architects, Interior Designers, General Contractors, church leaders and so on still associate what was common years ago when they think of worship audio, whether it is actually applicable or not.

Despite years of trying to educate people I still routinely encounter many even in the design and construction industry who view acoustics, audio, video and lighting as things you add to a completed space rather than their being integral elements of the space and its function as is increasingly the case.

tdangelo Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Weber (Post 314853)
In my experience resistance to having a mix position in the listener area is usually related to either ignorance of the related issues, which you can hopefully address through education, to the audio quality not being a priority, which seems to perhaps suggest a larger issue, or to having conflicting interests (e.g. the Architect or Interior Designer that doesn't like the way it looks), in which case they may not be open to any discussion. If people are willing to listen then the value of the person mixing hearing what the listeners hear is usually not that difficult to convey. If they're not willing to listen then all the articles and white papers in the world may not help.
Brad,

Excellent points!

Production always has and I suppose always will be a compromise. Where your audio guy really wants to put his speakers verses where he can, where your video director really wants to put cameras verses where he can, and where your lighting guy really wants his lights verses where he can are all issues that we as professional tech arts people compromise on each and every day.

There are other items however which we cannot compromise on and still fulfill the mandate that our supervisor has given us. It is then that we must respectfully speak up and explain how the decision will impede our execution of the instructions previously given. It is simply a matter of communicating back two bits of information which appear contradictory. It is for this reason that we must have a thorough understanding (beforehand) of the task and priorities at hand as given by our supervisor and not to project our own priorities on to the matter.

In my mind and assuming a contemporary worship style, where the mix position is located is one of those items which should not be compromised on beyond your ability to still fulfill the mandate. You must (generally) be located where you need to be to adequately hear if you stand a fighting chance of fulfilling your responsibilities.

Having an audio mix position be dictated by the architect or designer is as ridiculous as having the tech team dictate the scene portrayed in the new stain glass window or the color of the new carpeting. If the tech team does not have the clout to convince leadership I suggest that “an expert” be consulted. If leadership will not listen to the expert I suggest it might be time to evaluate one’s position in that ministry.

wogster Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrozman22000 (Post 314861)
Speaking from experience, the upstairs booth is not the way to go if you can prevent it. Our soundroom was implemented in the early 80's in the attic area above the Sunday School rooms at the rear of the sanctuary. I have two 3x2 windows that allow me to see and "hear" (?) the audio. It is like a reverse funnel, trying to scoop the house audio through the windows to get a sense of what is going on. To truly judge what the audience hears, I have to stick my head out the window and lean over the edge a little bit. One other issue, is that being nearly eye level with the speakers, I get a larger dose of the SPL coming straight at me, so when I do "hear" the outside sound it's still not what the audience hears. Unfortunately the designers did not take this into account when the church was built in the 60's
It may not be the 60's designers fault either, you need to find some old codger that has been around since the beginning who was old enough to know when they decided to put the sound system where it is. It may have originally been somewhere else.

Josh Scott Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 05:08 PM
It's a great idea if you want to get in shape walking up and down the stairs, have walkie talkies laying around you want to use between someone in the auditorium and the board op, or you have budgeted for a new digital console that will let you mix remote from an iPad.

Those are the solutions/complaints I get from any church I talk to that had an upstairs sound booth. Most where telling me how thankful they are they got the budget to move it downstairs.

Also remember some people have a rough time with stairs and this can limit your volunteer base.

osborn4 Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Scott (Post 314887)
Also remember some people have a rough time with stairs and this can limit your volunteer base.
I'll say. My brother-in-law built a sound room for a church that is accessed by an attic ladder to save room. I went up to look at thier projection computer and my 51 year old knees could barely make it. I did not do that twice. :cryops:

cw4u Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 08:20 PM
Ours is upstairs and even with a speaker dedicated for the FOH booth, it's still not the same as the sound on the floor which has caused quite a bit of complaints at times.

pdc Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebroach (Post 314840)
Do any of you guys know of magazine/white paper etc articles concerning the Pros/Cons of having a sound booth upstairs at rear of sanctuary..

Got a friend fixing to build church and that is where they are wanting to put it..
Fine. They want to put it up there? Let 'em'. There are many ways to mix on an iPad down in the audience wirelessly. This is all moot anymore, IMNSHO.


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pdc Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by osborn4 (Post 314888)
I'll say. My brother-in-law built a sound room for a church that is accessed by an attic ladder to save room. I went up to look at thier projection computer and my 51 year old knees could barely make it. I did not do that twice. :cryops:
Sound room....there should not be such a thing. lol.

Joseph B Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 09:02 PM
The sound/media booth in our new building is elevated. The sound people aren't totally happy (but they never are). They said the booth was too "echoy" and covered the inside with acoustic foam to make it more "personable". I didn't hear any difference. The bigger problem was the booth reflects everything inside and you can hear people talking in it at the front of the church. The foam helped with that Not crazy about the stairs either but at least it's not a ladder.

pdc Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 09:23 PM
People that make sound decisions need to make those decisions in the open air, where they can actually hear what is going on. So, it should make them mad to be in a booth, room, or any other space behind walls.

Acoustic tile may deaden some high frequencies, but it may not do anything to tame the time frequencies take to decay.

Esoteric Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 10:50 PM
It is a terrible idea. Anyone who proposes it should be summarily executed.

Frank DeWitt Tuesday, March 27th, 2012 11:13 PM
There was a long discussion on Church Sound Check a while back. A search should find it. My answer. Where do you want the best sound? The best sound in the room will always be at the ears of the sound guy. He is mixing it. He doesn't know what it sounds like over there. Fight hard, and if you can not win this one insist on a board that will support a remote tablet based mixer.

BTW If the churches architect wants to put it there then they have learned a valuable piece of news. The architect is no good. Churches are for HEARING the word of God. Hearing is even more important then looking pretty.

Frank

wogster Wednesday, March 28th, 2012 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esoteric (Post 314902)
It is a terrible idea. Anyone who proposes it should be summarily executed.
I don't know about executing someone for a bad idea, if we did that we would run out of politicians in about 4 seconds:D. It does mean they should be put in chains and forced to re-read this thread until they get what a really bad idea it is:p.

The reason it keeps coming up is that it hides the sound system where only the third class participants in the service, those in the balcony, will see it.

cmchamp Wednesday, March 28th, 2012 08:24 AM
JosephB
If people in the front of the sanctuary or auditorium can hear discussions in a mezzanine sound booth, and the mezzanine walls have been treated, be it properly or not, then you need to look at treatment of the ceiling as a reflective surface as well.
But before "dead cats" are thrown at the surface, it would be good to have a proper acoustical analysis of the room.

pdc Wednesday, March 28th, 2012 01:55 PM
Just tell them what I was told as a noisy child, "Shhhh, or you will go to....."

Ebroach Thursday, March 29th, 2012 11:25 PM
Thanks guys going to pass this along.