Back to the Future. Talks of TC

[Phil Hoover]

that the denomination doesn't have. WHY REINVENT THE WHEEL?

Simply "partner with LEE" as has been the case now for almost 20 years...and see what the LORD would have for both groups in the process.

The denomination DID NOT support the college when it was in existence (the HQs did, for the most part), and there is ZERO reason to believe it would be supported now...not in these economic times.

And when I say "support", I don't just mean "money"...I mean students, resources, and a lot more.

What would GOD have in mind for the COGOP at this point in history?

[free]

How has this gone from talk of a new TC to us joining/merging with the CoG...Nobody is talking about that now even though CoG and CoGoP are very similiar in doctrine.

I see a need for some type of specific CoGoP training for minsters/leaders/pastors...Something as simple as conducting church business meetings, etc. A lot of what the old BTI used to cover is really lost on new ministers and minister joining us from other organizations.

[paul]

The concern for equipped/trained or educated ministers for the future of COGOP ministry pool is a valid desire. I wonder what the percentage is of those who graduated from TC and entered ministry that are still active in COGOP ministry.

More educated ministers might also seek other denominations that might offer them more after schooling. One of the main functions of a denominational institute of higher learning is to ensure that the ministry is on the same page (not clones) but are in unity of focus and direction in order to move the denomination forward.

Because the cogop no loner sees itself as an exclusive group (at least on paper) but rather a part of the over all body of Christ. I agree with Phil.. "why reinvent the wheel ?"

[scooter]

The concern for equipped/trained or educated ministers for the future of COGOP ministry pool is a valid desire. I wonder what the percentage is of those who graduated from TC and entered ministry that are still active in COGOP ministry.

More educated ministers might also seek other denominations that might offer them more after schooling. One of the main functions of a denominational institute of higher learning is to ensure that the ministry is on the same page (not clones) but are in unity of focus and direction in order to move the denomination forward.

Because the cogop no loner sees itself as an exclusive group (at least on paper) but rather a part of the over all body of Christ. I agree with Phil.. "why reinvent the wheel ?"[/

Response: It seems like you just answered your own question.

I do find more educated ministers leaving. We have a few here that have left. I don't see that as a good thing.

If we are going to continue as a church that is distinct but not exclusive it seems that we should invest in the education of our people.

Besides all that with cooperation from Lee, the internet, the fact that we own the property, and the location, it may be much easier and less expensive of a venture than what one would think.

I still see this a positive step.

[cndlou]

WOW! I really don't think I knew this about the core curriculium... But with the cost of going back to school... I, for one, couldn't afford to attend Lee or TC, if the cost is in line with them.... Would this have a bearing on "ministers" using these colleges to further their education??? Maybe I just get such a good deal (still costing me a bundle) with where I attend, all others seem out of reach...

[germanshepherd]

. . . Because the cogop no loner sees itself as an exclusive group (at least on paper) but rather a part of the over all body of Christ. I agree with Phil.. "why reinvent the wheel ?"

Paul,

I would have to ask why you started another mission organization (I believe that you have started one.)? There are/were hundreds out there. "why reinvent the wheel?"

Sometimes the wheel needs to be modified to meet specific needs. A wheel for a Porsche will not work on my 1989 Pontiac Grand Am as an example. So, maybe a church college is needed to meet a specific need for the future of the COGOP.

[paul]

. . . Because the cogop no loner sees itself as an exclusive group (at least on paper) but rather a part of the over all body of Christ. I agree with Phil.. "why reinvent the wheel ?"

Paul,

I would have to ask why you started another mission organization (I believe that you have started one.)? There are/were hundreds out there. "why reinvent the wheel?"

Sometimes the wheel needs to be modified to meet specific needs. A wheel for a Porsche will not work on my 1989 Pontiac Grand Am as an example. So, maybe a church college is needed to meet a specific need for the future of the COGOP.

My situation is somewhat different, and because of this I think I speak with some understanding. yes, I did start a Mission Organization, and yes there are several out there. So did I re-invent the wheel is the question?

I believe that with honesty I can say no I did not re-invent the wheel.
What we are doing was not possible until a few years ago. and has only been made possible with the advance in technology.

Our Bible School material has been made available in over 65 languages by way of VHS then VCD and now DVD. Using portible DVD players the material is taken into the remotes areas even some without electricty and classes are given to tribal pastors and church leaders. Very few, and in most places none have made over 160+ video hours available in this manner.

We partnered togather with another ministry who was bringing together the speakers. We did not seek our own curriculum..theirs was great and more than adaquate.

If the rebirth of TC is placed in moton with a goal to be unique, different, challenging, a school that can offer something that no other school can offer. Then by all means go for it. If not then why not join with someone else that has laid the groundwork got it up and going and join forces to equip and train this and the next generation to carry the baton of Christianity.

[jdavis]

jdavis said:

I feel that we must tie ordination and higher education together. Require ordained ministry to continue their education to keep their license up to date. Require candidates for ministry to have a basic theological education in order to be ordained(not just read four books and take an open book test.)Utilize the school in a way that it is indespensable to the Church and it will be successful. That's my 2cents.

John, the last 13 years of my life have been spent devoted to reaching and equipping men and women for ministry. I doubt if anyone in this forum has spent as much time, energy and money in this pursuit as I have. The value of education cannot be overemphisied, but neither can it take the place of a true divine calling of God on ones life. Over the years having pioneered many churches, pastored many in and out of cogop, started and help start many independant ministries and by many standards become very successful in ministry; what got me here were some basic things taught to me by uneducated men ( my pastors as a youth) but men who had a true, genuine, heart felt calling of God on their lives. They were more than a preacher, more than miister, they were true Shepherds after the heart of God.

The two, education and ordination do not ensure a great man of God nor do they not ensure a great man of God.

Paul,

I totally agree with your statement. Many of the lessons and examples of faithfulness and loving concern for my members I learned at the feet of some great men of God. One of my first pastors could not read anything but the bible (barely). His wife read his text for him. He was a wonderful man of god and a spiritual giant in his time. His back story was that he never got the opportunity to go to school. But in this day in America, there is no excuse for a Pastor not to do all that he or she can with the talent God has entrusted to him. My favorite preacher is Bishop Arthur Brazier of the Apostolic Church of God in Chicago. He has a huge Church on the south side and is the real spiritual leader of the African American community(not Jesse J or James Meeks). He tells the story of working in the post office at night and going to Moody Bible Institute in the day all the while pastoring a struggling church in the inner city. Education is just one component of a successful ministry but it is a necessary one along with prayer and integrity of heart and life.
My comment concerning tying education to ordination would mean that the COGOP shows by action that it values learning and it would also show that they think theological learning is more than one good option.

[one love]

that the denomination doesn't have. WHY REINVENT THE WHEEL?

Simply "partner with LEE" as has been the case now for almost 20 years...and see what the LORD would have for both groups in the process.

The denomination DID NOT support the college when it was in existence (the HQs did, for the most part), and there is ZERO reason to believe it would be supported now...not in these economic times.

And when I say "support", I don't just mean "money"...I mean students, resources, and a lot more.

What would GOD have in mind for the COGOP at this point in history?

what is that last remark supposed to mean. I may have misunderstood your point (at least I hope I did)

[TW]

I have no dog in this fight, but let me pose a question.

Let's say that COGOP did get TC back up and running, and despite their best efforts the school was a dismal failure (from a financial aspect). If TC only produced one student that stayed in the ministry, and that one minister only led one person to salvation. Would that one soul not be wroth all that went into it?


TW

[Pastor Gary]

I have no dog in this fight, but let me pose a question.

Let's say that COGOP did get TC back up and running, and despite their best efforts the school was a dismal failure (from a financial aspect). If TC only produced one student that stayed in the ministry, and that one minister only led one person to salvation. Would that one soul not be wroth all that went into it?

Yes.

But that is a bit of a false choice; a better question we (COGOP) need to ponder is "Is this the highest and best use of our limited resources?" In other words, if we took the same amount of effort and resources that it will take to reestablish a viable college and, just for example, selected and provided scholarships for our best and brightest to attend Lee, Fuller, Gordon-Conwell or whatever...

That's just an example, not a proposal.

[free]

PG, I like your example but who determines who is the best and the brightest...What type of measuring stick would you use?

[justsam]

I can understand why many want to have an institution like TC up and running to represent the COGOP like Lee represents COG or the AG schools represent their churches.

But let's be honest for a minute about the track record that the COGOP has in running these things. How much time, energy and finances went into establishing TC back in the day, only to see it boarded up and shut down with no input from the people who gave financially and otherwise to establish it?

How much was spent on the tabernacle, only to see it closed and now sold to another organization that fills it every week, instead of once a year?

How much support in finances and otherwise was given to build up VOS, only to have it handed off to another organization, once again with no input from those who gave to see it established?

Despite the fact that the number of the people at the top (the GP) has increased from one to few, the COGOP is still a top-down, hierarchy where the members have essentially no voice unless the leaders feel like listening.

One person asked how many pastors would take up an offering at their churches or otherwise support a new TC. Why on earth should local churches and members support any initiative by GH when experience has told it's members again and again that the COGOP leadership will take their money to build something up only to see it mismanaged and lost to another organization who can manage it better.

I know that some will protest that things have changed and that we should trust the current leadership. When (or if) those changes are demonstrated in such a way that trust is earned, that trust will be given, not before.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

[MacUser]

But let's be honest for a minute about the track record that the COGOP has in running these things.

Ouch.

[Phil Hoover]

that one reason LEE has had such wonderful growth and such tremendous success is that about 40% of the students at Lee are not affiliated with the Church of God, but other CHRISTIAN denominations.

Dr Conn and his entire staff have been very intentional about this being "kingdom ministry" and not just "Church of God" ministry...