The Return of Christ

[beckrl]

As some preterist view the Coming of Christ and or the Coming of the Son of man is fulfilled in the first century from the writing of Matthew 24 fulfilling all prophecy. Now I understand that there are those of partial preterist.

Now what I would like to discuss is as a preterist do you look for the return of Christ, and if so in what matter, is Christ coming for his saints or with his saints or both?

I also would like to use scripture to defind that view point. In so much as what other than Matthew 24 and the related verse of the Olive Garden discourse that has to do with an return of Christ.

[Gerald Creasy]

As some preterist view the Coming of Christ and or the Coming of the Son of man is fulfilled in the first century from the writing of Matthew 24 fulfilling all prophecy. Now I understand that there are those of partial preterist.

Now what I would like to discuss is as a preterist do you look for the return of Christ, and if so in what matter, is Christ coming for his saints or with his saints or both?

I also would like to use scripture to defind that view point. In so much as what other than Matthew 24 and the related verse of the Olive Garden discourse that has to do with an return of Christ.

The problem is seeing any use of the word "Coming" as the "End All Return of Christ".

We KNOW from Scripture that Jeus warned he would COME to remove the candlesticks of certain of the churches.

Did he threaten them with the second coming??

It is ludicrous to limit God simply because we have established the Doctrine of Coming in which Christ comes ONLY that one final way and no other.


In the OT God is described as coming in answer to prayer:

Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness [was] under his feet.

A coming in judgement:


Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;

Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.


God is described as coming many times in the Old Testament as I have shown.

But we Limit Christ our God. He can't come but ONCE and it has to be his final coming.

If you try to point this out you are said to deny the Coming of Christ.

Illogical, faulty thinking which limits the Power of God and forces an interpretation on the scripture.

I recently came across this thinking in a Futurist Post Trib Rapture book in which a declatrative statement was made:. Any Time parousia is used in scripture it means the Second Coming.
This is patently false.

Parousia is the Greek used in 24:3 but Christ uses Erchomai in 24:30.

If you search the New Testament Jesus Erchomai-ed all over the place. You can not limit coming to ONE definition by espousing the disciples word -turn it into a specific doctrine-- and give Christ the finger on the word he uses.

[beckrl]

So in short, You do believe Jesus is returning? Notice I didn't use the word "coming"

Then which scripture(s) you understand that fortells of the event without being apart of the event of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Do you consider the scripture of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 one that refer to his return for the saints?

[Gerald Creasy]

So in short, You do believe Jesus is returning? Notice I didn't use the word "coming"

Then which scripture(s) you understand that fortells of the event without being apart of the event of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Do you consider the scripture of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 one that refer to his return for the saints?

I do not see that Jesus has come in the manner described in Acts 1.

While I would tend to believe that 1 Thess 4:15-18 would be tied to the return mentioned in Acts 1, I forsee that one might tie the following "Day of the Lord" in chapter 5 as being connected.

Some extreme or Hyper-preterists use these scriptures together as describing ONE even and conclude that the RETURN was secret in the same manner as a theif strikes and was in conjunction with the Destruction of Jerusalem

I don't believe that for a second.

I think there are two difficulties here:

1) The two ideas are connected with a BUT:

Sunday we'll have Rain
BUT
Monday will be sunny.

The Coming of the Lord shall.....(1 thes 4:15)
BUT
The Day of the Lord (1 Thes 5:2)

2) One can NOT take all "day of the Lord" passages in the New Testament and say they all describe one event.

"Day of the Lord" is used describing multiple events in the OLD TESTAMENT and we can not abandon THAT precedence for our own interpretave methods.

[beckrl]

Gerald Creasy

While I would tend to believe that 1 Thess 4:15-18 would be tied to the return mentioned in Acts 1, I forsee that one might tie the following "Day of the Lord" in chapter 5 as being connected.

As I understand you, you "tend to believe" 1 Thess 4:15-18 and Acts 1:11 both refer to Jesus return for his saints. What I got was that you don't believe that those tie together with "the Day of the Lord" described in 1 Thes 5:2.

Are these the only two scriptures you understand as being a prophecy of his return? Did Christ himself ever fortold of his return for his saint's?

If I'm right, you view that the Day of the Lord in general speaks of a day of judgment. That it is'nt limited to this one time end time event.

That said, in your opinion which prophecy scriptures of the Day of the Lord does aline with his return if any.

[Gerald Creasy]

Gerald Creasy

While I would tend to believe that 1 Thess 4:15-18 would be tied to the return mentioned in Acts 1, I forsee that one might tie the following "Day of the Lord" in chapter 5 as being connected.

As I understand you, you "tend to believe" 1 Thess 4:15-18 and Acts 1:11 both refer to Jesus return for his saints. What I got was that you don't believe that those tie together with "the Day of the Lord" described in 1 Thes 5:2.

Are these the only two scriptures you understand as being a prophecy of his return? Did Christ himself ever fortold of his return for his saint's?

If I'm right, you view that the Day of the Lord in general speaks of a day of judgment. That it is'nt limited to this one time end time event.

That said, in your opinion which prophecy scriptures of the Day of the Lord does aline with his return if any.

I "tend to belive" because I am not fully studied with encyclopedic knolwedge.

I offer objections which are based on logic and Biblical precedents and the very words of Christ (which the Futurist chooses not to believe, or believe them literally.)

One can NOT espouse a belief which entials making Jesus a liar, no matter how their synthesis of other scriptures make the case for their system.

[beckrl]

Gerald Creasy

While I would tend to believe that 1 Thess 4:15-18 would be tied to the return mentioned in Acts 1, I forsee that one might tie the following "Day of the Lord" in chapter 5 as being connected.

As I understand you, you "tend to believe" 1 Thess 4:15-18 and Acts 1:11 both refer to Jesus return for his saints. What I got was that you don't believe that those tie together with "the Day of the Lord" described in 1 Thes 5:2.

Are these the only two scriptures you understand as being a prophecy of his return? Did Christ himself ever fortold of his return for his saint's?

If I'm right, you view that the Day of the Lord in general speaks of a day of judgment. That it is'nt limited to this one time end time event.

That said, in your opinion which prophecy scriptures of the Day of the Lord does aline with his return if any.

I "tend to belive" because I am not fully studied with encyclopedic knolwedge.

I offer objections which are based on logic and Biblical precedents and the very words of Christ (which the Futurist chooses not to believe, or believe them literally.)

One can NOT espouse a belief which entials making Jesus a liar, no matter how their synthesis of other scriptures make the case for their system.

Gerald,
I'm not trying to down play your beliefs, but just trying to better understand your view point. When I ask for scripture(s) it is so that I can see from scripture(s) how you come to your conclusions.

For some preterist have different views.(full and partial)
What I understand is that your view is that "all' of what Jesus fortold in Matthew 24-25 is fulfilled in the first century, but also believe that Christ will return for his saints. It just that Matthew's "coming of the son of man"
Isn't apart of his proclaimed return it's more of the judgment of Jerusalem.

My question would be did Jesus himself tell the disciples of his return(exempt of Matthew)?

[beckrl]

As I was reading the scripture of Matthew 23:39 What is your thoughts, is this verse fulfilled.

I understand that the context is of Jerusalem which killed the prophets, and wise men, and scribes and now even Jesus. Jesus said, it is now left unto you desolate (left without a prophet). That he would not return until they say"Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

My question would be do you see that been fulfilled are is this verse one that fortells of his return in the future?