Joel Osteen

[pastorables]

Okay! I actually generally enjoy "occasionally" listening to Joel Osteen. His sermons normally lift my spirits and bring joy when I'm low.

Last night was a little different though. Joel was preaching on the God of Abundance and he used the following scripture to proclaim God's faithfulness in giving us more than we desire to bless us, etc...

"Now a wind went out from the LORD, and it brought quail from the sea and left them fluttering near the camp, about a day's journey on this side and about a day's journey on the other side, all around the camp, and about two cubits above the surface of the ground. And the people stayed up all that day, all night, and all the next day, and gathered the quail (he who gathered least gathered ten homers); and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp. (Numbers 11)...

The problem is he left off the next part. I knew he was leaving it out when he preached it. I wasn't sure if he did it deliberately or if he just didn't remember the entire account. Nevertheless, I felt that he abused the text in leaving off this next part...

...But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was aroused against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very great plague. So he called the name of that place Kibroth Hattaavah, because there they buried the people who had yielded to craving" (Numbers 11:31-34).

What sayest thou? Is it okay to use part A of the text in the context of an uplifting "God of Abundance" (feel good) sermon?

[dolfan]

I don't know what Osteen preached (whatever it was, I'm sure it was wrong ). But, the whole purpose for the quail being provided so was God saying, "Hey, want to complain against my provision? Want quail instead? Okay ---- have some QUAIL. Eat it until you are sick. Then, come back and complain about manna."

And the people complained in the hearing of the Lord about their misfortunes, and when the Lord heard it, his anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some outlying parts of the camp. 2 Then the people cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the Lord, and the fire died down. 3 So the name of that place was called Taberah, because the fire of the Lord burned among them.

4 Now the rabble that was among them had a strong craving. And the people of Israel also wept again and said, “Oh that we had meat to eat! 5 We remember the fish we ate in Egypt that cost nothing, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic. 6 But now our strength is dried up, and there is nothing at all but this manna to look at.

Egypt was better in their sight than God's manna. Brutal, inhuman slavery and paganism was better for them than God's manna. They didn't have to do anything but put it in their mouths, basically. The only thing more God could have done, I guess, was chew it for them like a mother bird?? It was a rejection of God, not just manna. If given the choice, manna from God or fish from Egypt's slave-driving murderers, those Hebrews in Numbers would've chosen the hand of Egypt over the hand of God.

That passage is not about God's desire to give us more than we deserve. It demonstrates how God judges rightly our rejection of Him, and how that even in His awful wrath He has made a way for mercy.

And, the passage is part of a larger series of events. In chapter 11, this complaint had gotten to Moses so severely that he actually asked God to kill him if things were going to work out like this. Everybody was giving up on God in this point of time, it seems when you read it (of course, Moses is clearly a guy to feel for here). So, God says, "Alright, get 70 elders to help you handle the load." Moses does. And,

And the Lord said to Moses, “Is the Lord's hand shortened? Now you shall see whether my word will come true for you or not.”

24 So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord. And he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people and placed them around the tent. 25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it.

They did not continue doing it. God's provision was given to the people. They did not continue wanting it. God's direction and His word was given to the elders so that the Spirit was on them to prophesy, but they didn't (all but 2 of them) continue doing it.

Moses clearly wanted that they would all "continue doing it."

26 Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the Spirit rested on them. They were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp. 27 And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.” 28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the assistant of Moses from his youth, said, “My lord Moses, stop them.” 29 But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord's people were prophets, that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!” 30 And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp.

Then, God brought the quail on for them to choke on it.

What is God to do when we reject His provision and His direction? What does He do when we crave everything but we don't crave Him to the exclusion of everything else? One thing is, He corrects. And, it is not easy. It is not short, it is not a blow from which you just shake off the dust and keep trucking on your own. But, He's also merciful.

In chapter 12, the plague of rejection makes it all the way to Miriam and Aaron, who turn on Moses for marrying a Cushite woman (Ethiopian?). And, God called them out --- literally. Miriam is given leprosy, and then healed of it by God's mercy.

When God speaks, it is so serious that to speak against Him brings His examination of us: "Why were you then not afraid to speak...?" (Num. 12:8). When He judges, He does so rightly. Severely, rightly and yet with mercy.

I'm thankful that I'm not yet destroyed. While God certainly wants to reward His children (Heb. 11:6), He insists that we follow Him and His Way (John 10) to know His blessing in the person of His Son.

Now, I don't know what Osteen did, but I doubt he examined the whole of it.

[pastorables]

Now, I don't know what Osteen did, but I doubt he examined the whole of it.

Tim,

He preached a little more in depth on the subject, but here is the gist of his thesis from his 2013 book "Break Out":

When the Israelites were in the desert headed toward the Promised Land they had manna to eat each day. It was similar to bread. After a while they grew tired of it. They complained to Moses that they didn’t have any meat to eat. Moses told God about their concerns. God said, “Moses, I will give you meat not for one day or five days or twenty days, but for a whole month.”

Moses said, “God, that’s impossible. There are two million people out here. Even if we butchered all of our flocks, all of our herds, we wouldn’t have that much meat.”

God replied, “Moses, is there any limit to My power?”
He was saying, “Just because you don’t see a way, Moses, doesn’t mean I don’t have a way. All I have to do is shift a few things around and I can bring it to pass.”

That’s what God did. Numbers 11:31 says, “God shifted the wind and brought quail in from the sea and caused it to fall into their camp.”
Notice how good God is to His children. They didn’t even have to go out and hunt or fish. The quail came to them. They just went out of their tent and picked up as many as they wanted.

What am I saying? God knows how to shift things so that blessings come to you. (Break Out, Joel Osteen, Page 10)

[stevenson]

I just finished a month long Bible study at our church on the subject of proper scriptural context. Osteen is one of those that takes scriptures out of context to fit his point. I haven't listened to the guy in years but I do watch when someone is interviewing him to see what crazy thing he'll say next.