Predestined for Glorification

[newnature]

We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.

Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe.

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.

God’s Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

[RaceRunner]

Except....scripture doesn't support your theory of not being able to lose your salvation.

Mar 11:
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

[scooter]

To me there is strong delusion, in the church, which leads people to believe in an overstatement of grace.

I trust in Christ for my salvation, but recognize that same salvation by the fruits that accompany the relationship.

The problem with generic statements, such as the one to start this thread, is it leads people to a false security.

Why would there be a need to examine ourselves to avoid being reprobate if the process was as simply complete as has been stated.

To me the entire NT teaches a fruitful relationship with and through Christ. To me this overstated grace false doctrine ignores that fact.

The biggest problem for me is that, the Bible says, some will think they are saved and are not. That will only happen by misunderstanding ones standing "in Christ". i.e. "we are all saved regardless of our actions".

On a larger scale, God truly created us, predestined us, to be like Christ. In doing so He created us to be saved. However we know that not all will be saved and that is contrary to what God has purposed.

That won't be His fault. It will be by us misunderstanding the whole faith/works relationship and assumed innocence in ones sins.

[RaceRunner]

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Mat 24:11-13)

Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (Jas 1:12-15)

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:23-39)

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(Rev 2:4-5)

[dolfan]

We cannot earn salvation,

True. We are completely unable, wholly unworthy. You cannot earn what is given. In fact, to think you can insults the giver. The initiative is God's alone.

and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us!

The most important part of this statement is the ", because". There is a huge leap from the conclusion back to the premises. The premises are that salvation is not based upon what we do. I imagine that this "do" hearkens back to the earlier "earn". In other words, it is just a repeat of we can't earn our salvation. That's a far cry, though, from the repeated, consistent biblical witness that what we do matters to God.

And, it is an overdone yet immensely popular reductionism that uses the phrase "based upon" as in "salvation is based not upon what we do". The benefit of this technique is that it lets the one using it exclude something that he wishes to ignore. It is very similar to the use of the word "about", as in "Christianity is about love." Well, yes, it is, but is isn't just about love nor is love the exclusive factor in living out the Way of Jesus. The bible teaches from one end to the other about many other attributes of God that He causes to occur and grow in those who are His: holiness, righteousness, love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faith, patience, temperance, meekness, wisdom, knowledge, submission to one another, esteeming one another as greater than ourselves, etc.

So, it is deceptive, actually, to say that our "salvation is not based upon what we do." If I do not repent, I am not saved. If I do not believe, I am not saved. If I do not obey, I am not saved. All of these things I am commanded to do by the One who defines, epitomizes, exemplifies and actually supplies my salvation. My doing of these things does not "earn" my salvation, but it is the evidence of my salvation and there is no other biblically approved evidence of it than the fruit that I bear. And, the fruit that I bear is a huge part of the point, at least according to Jesus -- "I have chosen you that you should bear much fruit and that your fruit should remain."

What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance.

Buzz word alert: Performance. This is a sneaky way of the "based upon"/"about" phenomenon that is so popular in Christian teaching nowadays. It is a surrogate for "earn", but it is also used as a descriptor for "do". It gets used like this statement that we are made righteous by God as a gift and that we can't "gain that declaration through performance". Seems innocuous enough, and it rings true; after all, God does make us righteous and we have no righteousness, no good thing within our own flesh. Not even "doing" the "biblical stuff".

It gets applied though to mean this: Since the Father is the source of righteousness, and really all He does is treat us as righteous because He "sees" us through the eyes of the perfect atoning sacrifice of His Son, Jesus, it is silly for us to think that what we do matters. After all, He doesn't give us His righteousness "based on" what we do; He isn't "about" that.

Now, that's way far afield from the teaching of the Bible. It's just untrue when you cobble it all together in that manner.

The truth is this: We are sinners and nothing good dwells in our flesh, and we serve only our flesh unless and until we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. We are saved when we repent, believe and obey the Gospel of Jesus. Repent, believe and obey require doing. They are not temporary, short-term acts, but lifelong actions and ways of living that we never depart from as we grow in the grace, knowledge and wisdom of God; that is to say, as we are transformed toward that image of Jesus, we are doing a lot of things obediently, in love, dependent on the ever-constant, ever-present, ever-powerful Spirit of God and the ever-living Word of God, and we are being shaped into that place and image that God has predetermined as the perfection which He brings us to -- the image of His Son.

Now, this in itself says nothing about "losing" salvation, so to speak. But, it does rebut the half-true notions of those ideas expressed in the original post up to this point in it.

Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.

Huh? No, for real, the poster has done us a favor with this. This is the next natural step into New Age pop psychology that happens after you use the "based upon"/"about" techniques that are at least attempted to be hidden in buzz words like "performance". "Core" and "negative" are just more buzz words. They don't mean anything. What's a biblical "core"? And, what's "negative"? Where does the bible even categorize anything as "positive" or "negative"? In our day, "negative" means "I don't like it". It may or may not mean the opposite of truly good.

The problem with buzz words like this is you can make them mean pretty much whatever you want. They are a real advantage for the Scripture twister. Because the words are so popular, and because everyone thinks they have a grasp on what the words mean, especially value-laden words like "negative", it becomes an approved Christian practice for a believer to interpret and apply the Bible in a light of the buzz word like "negative". So, the poster moves from words like "salvation" and "righteousness" smoothly across words like "based upon" and "performance" and acts as if he still stands on biblical ground when he asserts "self-sanctification sits at the core in a negative way in the mindset..." blah blah blah. He gets to stand confidently with a smile on his face as if he is really commenting on the Bible when, in truth, he has moved away from it altogether. He disguises it by name-dropping Paul.

But, it seems.....truthy. Right-ish. And, if I'm not armed with the right biblical knowledge and the correct understanding of who God is in Christ, then I may be silenced by the confident truthy rightishness of pablum nonsense like something sitting "at the core in a negative way in the mindset". (BTW, mindset is also a popular buzzword for the New Age.)

Watch the poster move back into biblical language now.

Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance.

Now, he's getting to what he's really wanting to say. "Don't motivate people with fear. Don't motivate people with thoughts of judgment. Those are not greater motivators like grace. Grace is the selling point of the gospel." And, this is a great way to diagnose the problem of our poster and so many others: the gospel is a pitch, Jesus is a pal, the faith is a lifestyle, the church is a culture of people who see this, and the people who are in the church and don't see this are missing the boat. "And, hey, if you want to be negative, go ahead, but watch your church wither while we're over here having a party with Jesus. Chumps."

In other words, it is another gospel than the one Jesus, the apostles, Paul and the New Testament present.

Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe.

I happen to agree with the last sentence to this extent: he has predestined the conformity into the image of Jesus for those who believe and that He does and has ever and eternally known who will believe. But, it doesn't flow from the argument up to this point that such is true; in fact, there really hasn't been much in the way of sound reasoning up to this point even if the poster's assertion in this sentence is correct. So, the last sentence in this segment is out of place because it isn't part of the argument, OR, everything else the poster has said up to this sentence is to be ignored as not part of the argument.

Putting two questions in some sort of opposition to one another about why people are set apart as holy in God's sight is probably not even thought through by the poster. It ignores that we are made holy in God's sight out of the sheer will of God. When He says, "Be holy because I am holy", He is not blowing sunshine. He means it as if to say, "I'm holy, and I make you holy because of it. I empower you and allow you to DO things to live in my holy ways. You are not yet what you shall be but you will see what I'm making of you at the revelation of My Son when He returns for you."

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future.

First, avoid the buzz word of "comfort zone". Insert there the word "sin" (and, I cite to you John 3:19-21), and the rest of this segment is actually true, but it doesn't lead to....

At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him.

Belief does not join us to Christ. And, mere assent is not belief. Belief is repentant obedience to the gospel. Believing is doing. At the point of my repentant obedience to the gospel and my continuing therein with Jesus, who seals me with the Holy Spirit of God, I'm no longer merely "associated with Christ". He's not my boon companion, He's not my partner in life, He's not my leader and guide. He's all of those things, and more, but what He is is this --- alive IN me. I'm not joined to Him in some formal sense wherein God grants me access to Him in a particular way; I'm joined to Him in a real sense where God makes me "accepted in the beloved", and wherein "Christ in [me is] the hope of glory." I'm not shifted from one ledger to another. I'm shifted from one nature (as the poster correctly cited from 1 John 2:16) to another. I'm changed and changing (Romans 12:1, 2). No one should fall for this half-witted notion that I'm merely associated with Christ when I assent that the bible is true. Nope.

What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.

So, this association entitles me to benefits. Like the poster's earlier implication, the gospel is a pitch. This is the soft close. It comes with HIS endorsement of God's plan, which is so very graciously offered by the poster. This thought that God has joined us with a righteous person and moved us into what this righteous person has/does is deemed "salvation". This is not the Gospel. Jesus is not "someone else." He is God Himself condescended to the form and likeness of men, and who became obedient unto death on the cross. Not by what He assented to in the abstract, but by what He did in concrete reality, because He knew and knows eternally what is the will of the Father. We know it too. It is the gospel. And we can do it.

[newnature]

Reconciliation and sanctification, two different judicial transactions, God is no longer imputing the sins of the world, unto the world, because he imputed those sins to his son. God has reconciled the entire world; believers and non-believers alike to himself through what his son accomplished. Now, we need to be placed into God’s son, so that we can have his son’s righteousness attributed freely to our account. Total abandonment of any notion that our performance is connected by any means or in any manner to our righteous standing IN Christ. Our performance would never cut it, not before we were born anew, and not after, we need to allow God’s power to take up residence with us, but we do not control this power, as if it were some universal force; rather, we have access to this power that is dwelling within us. We need to cease attributing our righteous standing before God to our performance and keep our mind focused solely on how God views us IN Christ, that is what grace-life is all about, and we will be victorious in that God’s power can now produce it’s fruit in our life. When God raised Jesus from among the dead, it was God’s stamp of “pain in full” on the invoice of our sin debt. We could not get right with God in a million life times of trial and error, we could never make ourselves right with God; God had to do what we could not do. Now believing sinners can be certain that in Christ, they are justified.

The simple message of Paul’s gospel is total payment for sin, accomplished by Christ’s total sacrifice. According to Paul, we have how much forgiveness, total forgiveness! If we want God to view us today, we got to be in his son. How can we get into his son, and have all of his righteousness freely imputed to our account? By simply taking God at his word concerning what his son accomplished for us, it is as simply as that. When God says he is satisfied with what Christ did for our sins, when Christ died for them, all our sins were all future. It is a son issue on our part, not a sin issue, in order to receive the gift of salivation. The resurrection of Christ is not only a historical event that we look back to with satisfaction and joy; it is the greatest event in history. One of the most disturbing things is someone unable to express confidence about whether they can know if they will have eternal life or not. The very power that raised Jesus from among the dead is available to us; we were baptized into Jesus Christ with this power. Faith is taking God at his word concerning what his son accomplished on our behalf. God did all the giving; we do only all the receiving. God knows what his son accomplished on our behalf where all of our sin debt is concerned and he is satisfied that all of that sin has already been judged on his son, leaving no judgment for us where our sin is concerned. Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ’s righteousness. Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive. Justification is a legal term which changes the believing sinner’s standing before God, declaring us acquitted and accepted by God, with the guilt and penalty of our sins put away forever.

[dolfan]

James must have been lying when he said that "it is sin" to one who knows to do good and does not do it. James 4:17. It is sin, but it doesn't count, I suppose.

And, so we come again to the tactics of the false teachers of hyper grace. The ever tried and not true judicial transaction theory. You know, newnature, I am an attorney. I have been practicing now for 16 years. Not one time in all those years have I ever heard, used or read the phrase "judicial transaction". Do you want to know why?

Judges do not transact. They judge. They decide. They impose.

In fact, Google the phrase. You will see in the first two pages of results that the phrase appears in three contexts most commonly. One is bible scholars who use the phrase but not as you have; the references are scant. More common is the second way it is used--by would be theologians who have repeated the phrase among themselves so often that they actually think it means something. I'm about to demonstrate to you that the analogy of "judicial transaction" is thin air. Because, the third way you see it used is in a few old (19th and early 20th century) legal treatises. But, wait.

Do you know what a judicial transaction is? It is not a decision or determination or imposition or even an imputation (which is really simply a particular type of decision). It is an act of witness or simply being a party to a legal transaction. It is not even especially judicial. A notary conducts a judicial transaction by notarizing. But, his notarizing is not a decision nor an imposition nor a verdict. It is simply an act of witness.

The popular characterization of justification as a judicial transaction is either invented from whole cloth or is just gobbledygook that sounds really spiritual. It misleads. It paints an image of a God as a judge who acts more like an accountant who is gracious enough to cook the books for us since by our own performance we can't do it ourselves. It is like being in the mob. You get "made" and you've got it made! That's the smoke and mirror of the "in Christ" language he tosses around.

We are "placed into God's son," he says. Malarkey. The bible never says we are "placed into" him. We are baptized into Him, we are in Him of God's doing, and we are His workmanship, and lives in us and we live in Him. But this whole construct of a judicial transaction placing us in Him is an invention.

Then, newnature uses the phrase "righteous standing in Christ". Standing is, again, a legal term. And misused to mean that we don't have to do anything as believers. Our judicially granted status in the transaction that shifted us from one ledger to another outs us in righteous standing and all we do is believe and receive. We are passive. God is a GENIUS for this.

And, did you see him slip this in...."this is what the grace-life is all about" ? Did I not tell you?? New Age again. Bootstrap a biblical word onto another word, make it seem like a biblical teaching, use the popular reductionist phrase "all about" and smoothly move on to non biblical teaching. Voila!

And, he can't even get the properly legal terminology of the Bible right. Tetelestai or "paid in full" was not "stamped" at the resurrection. It was stated on the cross. Our sin debt was satisfied on the cross by Jesus. It was not a debt of invoice, but a debt of blood. Without blood, there is no remission. The debt was impossible not because the invoice was impossibly high, but because the blood of bulls and livestock could never be sinless and also be supplied by a sinless man. Only the Son of God could satisfy this demand.

Need I go on to the second paragraph and address this whole business about simply taking God at His word as being faith?

This is pure trash.

[RaceRunner]

2Co 5:10    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.2Co 5:11    Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1Co 9:27    But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Col 2:8    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[scooter]

This is pure trash.

Response: Some things never change.

[Shellie]

I like ice cream.

[scooter]

I like ice cream.

Response: Sinner

[TW]

I like ice cream.

Response: Sinner

Nothing she could do about it. She was predestined.


TW

[newnature]

The person who does not know what death is does not know either what resurrection is. In order to take the resurrection seriously, we must also take death seriously. The Christian belief in the resurrection of the body did not arise from philosophical speculations or wishful thinking like the notion of the immortality of the soul. It arose from the conviction that such an event had actually already taken place with the resurrection of Jesus from among the dead. The resurrection is proof that Jesus is who he claimed to be, and that his sacrifice was pleasing to God. As long as Jesus lay in the tomb, he was just another tragic religious figure who suffered a martyr’s death. In fact, Paul tells us that the resurrection is the greatest display of God’s power ever to be demonstrated, nor can it ever be surpassed. Our decree of judicial perfection in the eyes of God comes not through Jesus’ death for our sins, but through our union with Jesus’ resurrection life. Paul’s statement that Jesus’ resurrection was “the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep,” the expression “first fruits” has little meaning for today’s urban dwellers. In Bible times, it had a rich meaning because it referred to the first produce of the harvest, which was offered in sacrifice to God to express gratitude for granting a new harvest. Thus, the first fruits, which were brought to the Temple, were seen not as mere hope of a new harvest, but as its actual beginning. Jesus’ resurrection, then, is “the first fruits” in the sense that it has made the resurrection of believers not a mere possibility, but a certainty.

God planned that his son become sin for the world which his son did indeed become, but when it comes to being made the righteousness of God IN Christ, what response is necessary in order for a person to be made the righteousness of God by being placed INTO CHRIST? BELIEF in what God’s son accomplished where sins are concerned is that required response, it is very simple when we understand the difference in Reconciliation and Righteousness. Not everyone has been baptized into Christ even though Christ, by himself, purged his or her sins when his blood dripped on God’s Ark. If Christ purged only the sins of believers, then Christ did not become a ransom for all, faith in what Christ accomplished where your sins are concerned is the requirement to be placed into Christ and have Christ’s test score placed on your paper. Paul wanted to be found clothed in the righteousness that comes from being placed INTO Jesus Christ rather than to be found wearing the righteousness that came from his performance. Paul knew that the righteousness related to his performance would never measure up to the level of God’s righteousness. The reality of reconciliation is the good news that Satan would gladly give up his pitchfork to keep people from believing today, and he has been very successful through what Paul calls “ministers of righteousness” in doing that very thing. Satan only needs to focus on today to keep people in a lost condition is The Reality of Reconciliation, he does not need to go any further than that. If Satan can keep that glorious truth hidden by blinding people's eyes to it through a message that keeps sin on the table of God’s justice where that sin has already been put away, that turns Paul’s glorious gospel into a not so glorious gospel after all! Many people are living in their minds today with probation rather than salvation.

[dolfan]

The person who does not know who he is talking to does not know what he is talking about.

"Urban dwellers"? Are you kidding me? Do you know that most of the people who post here are people with roots in rural life? Most of us can tell stories of our selves, our parents or grandparents working farms, crops and harvests. Most of us know WHY there IS a Daylight Savings Time even if we don't necessarily like it. Don't bring in your Starbucks-sipping, stereotyping condescension. We know what first fruits are. In fact, I think we have a better idea of what a fruit is when we see it than even you might have.

We know the Bible, too. We are to bring forth the fruits of repentance. How? By doing works fit and proper as the result of repentance. Acts 26:20 also, Matthew 3:8. This is the fruit Jesus chooses us to bear and for that fruit to keep on being borne in our lives. John 15:16

Now, you can keep pasting all this baloney about judicial this and that, stretching and twisting our justification by faith into all sorts of hand crafted toys for your own enjoyment. But, realize this....you are kidding yourself and no one here is fooled by it, newnature.

[Susie Hamilton]

I went on a diet that said I could eat anything I wanted and still lose weight. Didn't work, just the opposite.