Timing seems to be everything

[Pastor Bill]

It's important to realize what you see in your area, may not match what others are doing, and may not be "Typical" for the CoGoP outside your area.

In KY our state offices are doing regular training and equipping for younger leaders (as well as for all pastors/leaders) This is becoming more common, was it lacking in the past, yes, but there are many in different areas that are working to change that.

[dawgs10]

Are they receiving appointments to larger church's and or overseer type positions?

It's important to realize what you see in your area, may not match what others are doing, and may not be "Typical" for the CoGoP outside your area.

In KY our state offices are doing regular training and equipping for younger leaders (as well as for all pastors/leaders) This is becoming more common, was it lacking in the past, yes, but there are many in different areas that are working to change that.

[dolfan]

Dawgs, respectfully, what does that have to do with it? Everything that makes sense in light of the Word and what is going on in the wide world in the body of Christ is opposed to leadership as elevation of personality. Leadership is clearly drawn as servant hood. And, servant hood is not seeking opportunities to oversee or "get the big church". And, truly, there are precious few "large" COGOP churches. (That is not a criticism; relatively speaking, almost all churches are less than 200 and are smallish.) If growing young leaders means putting them in those situations you mentioned, it won't be long until no one is leading. There just are not enough big COGOPs.

Leading is launching. Pioneering new work, not tending long existing ones, is the better measure of leadership development.

[Pastor Bill]

Are they receiving appointments to larger church's and or overseer type positions?

It's important to realize what you see in your area, may not match what others are doing, and may not be "Typical" for the CoGoP outside your area.

In KY our state offices are doing regular training and equipping for younger leaders (as well as for all pastors/leaders) This is becoming more common, was it lacking in the past, yes, but there are many in different areas that are working to change that.

I can't speak of each person involved, but yes we are younger people in leadership positions, and the training/equipping sessions I'm referring to are specifically for those in leadership in the local churches.

One thing that also skews this perception is ambition. Often some people want a position, and feel it's taking them longer to get there than "normal" but you also have to remember not all in previous generations moved to leadership either.

[paul]

Dawgs, respectfully, what does that have to do with it? Everything that makes sense in light of the Word and what is going on in the wide world in the body of Christ is opposed to leadership as elevation of personality. Leadership is clearly drawn as servant hood. And, servant hood is not seeking opportunities to oversee or "get the big church". And, truly, there are precious few "large" COGOP churches. (That is not a criticism; relatively speaking, almost all churches are less than 200 and are smallish.) If growing young leaders means putting them in those situations you mentioned, it won't be long until no one is leading. There just are not enough big COGOPs.

Leading is launching. Pioneering new work, not tending long existing ones, is the better measure of leadership development.

You are so right. In our local church our pastor started it 13 years ago in the frontroom of his house with about 12 peple. It was his first pastorate at age 40. We now run between 300-350 and in the past 10 years have given over $1 million to missions.

[PastorP]

Was Moses too old for leadership?

[dolfan]

Dawgs, respectfully, what does that have to do with it? Everything that makes sense in light of the Word and what is going on in the wide world in the body of Christ is opposed to leadership as elevation of personality. Leadership is clearly drawn as servant hood. And, servant hood is not seeking opportunities to oversee or "get the big church". And, truly, there are precious few "large" COGOP churches. (That is not a criticism; relatively speaking, almost all churches are less than 200 and are smallish.) If growing young leaders means putting them in those situations you mentioned, it won't be long until no one is leading. There just are not enough big COGOPs.

Leading is launching. Pioneering new work, not tending long existing ones, is the better measure of leadership development.

I need to clarify something. I meant, by the bolder phrase, not sticking a younger guy into a long existing, even prosperous situation, is the better measure of leadership development as opposed to launching and leading. Certainly, existing leaders in those longer tenures and "better situations" (please allow the phrase) are frequently developing themselves and others. It was hastily typed. Sorry for any insult I caused.

[dawgs10]

it has everything to do with this subject. I am the kind of minister that knows my calling in the Body. As of now I am not a Lead Pastor because God has placed me in a Body to serve as an Assoc. Pastor. Now lets get real for a moment. If we are talking about building a pool of ministers to pull from when an overseer resigns or dies we must look at the subject as a whole. Will men serve in a church of 10 in a horrible facility long enough to" pay their dues" until they are offered a larger congregation. maybe, maybe not. Would I work for years in a secular job that is way below my pay grade in education, experience and work ethic. A thousand time NO..We have to be more business minded when talking about training and creating a pool of ministers to pull from. If a minister is called to plant a church, then great. Go for it.. a church of 10 is more of a church plant than a traditional pastor any way. If I am directed by God to pastor a very small church than fine...If I feel God directing me to a church that has 150 yet "to young and have not paid my dues" I might as well be independent and not part of an organization of church's. I have not experienced this myself. But it happens. I am very surprised that you guys are not understanding this point. If a church lacks depth like any other organization its in trouble. So how do we create depth? Make it worth people's time. Allow people to work within their calling and stop forcing them to work within an outdated system.

Dawgs, respectfully, what does that have to do with it? Everything that makes sense in light of the Word and what is going on in the wide world in the body of Christ is opposed to leadership as elevation of personality. Leadership is clearly drawn as servant hood. And, servant hood is not seeking opportunities to oversee or "get the big church". And, truly, there are precious few "large" COGOP churches. (That is not a criticism; relatively speaking, almost all churches are less than 200 and are smallish.) If growing young leaders means putting them in those situations you mentioned, it won't be long until no one is leading. There just are not enough big COGOPs.

Leading is launching. Pioneering new work, not tending long existing ones, is the better measure of leadership development.

[paul]

[quote="dawgs10"]it has everything to do with this subject. I am the kind of minister that knows my calling in the Body. As of now I am not a Lead Pastor because God has placed me in a Body to serve as an Assoc. Pastor. Now lets get real for a moment. If we are talking about building a pool of ministers to pull from when an overseer resigns or dies we must look at the subject as a whole. Will men serve in a church of 10 in a horrible facility long enough to" pay their dues" until they are offered a larger congregation. maybe, maybe not. Would I work for years in a secular job that is way below my pay grade in education, experience and work ethic. A thousand time NO..We have to be more business minded when talking about training and creating a pool of ministers to pull from. If a minister is called to plant a church, then great. Go for it.. a church of 10 is more of a church plant than a traditional pastor any way. If I am directed by God to pastor a very small church than fine...If I feel God directing me to a church that has 150 yet "to young and have not paid my dues" I might as well be independent and not part of an organization of church's. I have not experienced this myself. But it happens. I am very surprised that you guys are not understanding this point. If a church lacks depth like any other organization its in trouble. So how do we create depth? Make it worth people's time. Allow people to work within their calling and stop forcing them to work within an outdated system.[quote]

Why not take that church of 10 and build it to 150. The one problem I saw when in the cogop (many years ago, may not be the same now) was how a mans ministry was defined, generally bt the S.O. He was 10-30 pastor, a 30-50 pastor and then 75-100 pastor which was big time. The emphisis was not on a pastor taking a church and building it to be a large church. Just meet you Assembly obligation, don't mess the church up and you might graduate to the next level. As a rule the pastors were taught management and not leadership. (again I'm sure it has changed to some degree). If you want to build depth in leadership then teach the pastors how to lead, how to build, how to faciliate others. Then they won't have to wait for the big church to open up, they will have built a big church. They will be recognized for their leadership ability and prayerfully drawn upon for other leadership roles. IMHO

[Full Quiver]

From an outsider's perspective I'd like to say that due to the fact that for nearly 100 years CoGoP used/has used/is using a system of govt. that selects and appoints overseers and local pastors to fill positions instead of local congregations making said choices along with the ministers.

This system, that I worked in with tcog and tcognc, actually hinders church growth for the most part if you were to ask me. A minister can't hardly get comfy and settle into a position due to politics, gossip, big I's & little u's working the system looking for appointments. Every year, for the longest, was another convention and another appointment process where rotation takes place, men get fired, shuffled, turn and run, etc.

CoGoP's system and the system of it's offsprings/splinter groups basically make the Lord look schizophrenic to the outside world. For instance Pastor Jon Doe gets appointed by an overseer to pastor in KY and he accepts the appointment and says he "feels it". A month or so later he takes an appointment to Colorado or to General HQ and again says "he feels it". God doesn't make mistakes and doesn't screw people over. I've seen ministers move and 2 months later get reappointed elsewhere.

Bishop Howard's resignation did not surprise the Lord and God already has a replacement lined up. Now, some overseer may appoint God's man elsewhere, but God won't.

If local churches were working with ministers to find God's will and selecting their own pastors then said pastors could cast a vision for the local church and grow said local congregation. Sure there have been and will be exceptions to this "rule" but this is what I have observed. I'd bet you'd find the largest, most successful congregations in the world select their own pastors.

[scooter]

From an outsider's perspective I'd like to say that due to the fact that for nearly 100 years CoGoP used/has used/is using a system of govt. that selects and appoints overseers and local pastors to fill positions instead of local congregations making said choices along with the ministers.

This system, that I worked in with tcog and tcognc, actually hinders church growth for the most part if you were to ask me. A minister can't hardly get comfy and settle into a position due to politics, gossip, big I's & little u's working the system looking for appointments. Every year, for the longest, was another convention and another appointment process where rotation takes place, men get fired, shuffled, turn and run, etc.

CoGoP's system and the system of it's offsprings/splinter groups basically make the Lord look schizophrenic to the outside world. For instance Pastor Jon Doe gets appointed by an overseer to pastor in KY and he accepts the appointment and says he "feels it". A month or so later he takes an appointment to Colorado or to General HQ and again says "he feels it". God doesn't make mistakes and doesn't screw people over. I've seen ministers move and 2 months later get reappointed elsewhere.

Bishop Howard's resignation did not surprise the Lord and God already has a replacement lined up. Now, some overseer may appoint God's man elsewhere, but God won't.

If local churches were working with ministers to find God's will and selecting their own pastors then said pastors could cast a vision for the local church and grow said local congregation. Sure there have been and will be exceptions to this "rule" but this is what I have observed. I'd bet you'd find the largest, most successful congregations in the world select their own pastors.

Response: Used to be. I have been here 20 years in Aug. Appointments and moving pastors stopped for the most part 10yrs + ago. Try outs are the norm.

Don't get me wrong, pastors still move, however it's mostly by choice, needfully or by mutual agreement.

The switch kind of reminded by of playing musical chairs when the music stops.

Now each church is suppose to review their pastor every fourth year under the current system. As far as I can remember.

[dawgs10]

I suppose my view of allowing the younger generation to take the lead is not going to be accepted here....Sad but true.

[dolfan]

What IS your view? Just turn over the keys to the kids? I know you don't mean THAT, but what specifically DO you mean? Let 40 year olds take over all leadership? What is this? Logan's Run? (You must be 45 or older to get that. )

I am not trying to be smart alecky. But, you have not made your point. You said if a man feels led by God to pastor a church of 150 but is deemed to young, maybe he should leave. Well, no. First, if a man is led by God to do anything with the body, others in the body will confirm it. If a man feels led, but no one else does, it will be exceptional for him to have gotten that feeling right as a matter of discernment. Second, if he feels led but does not make the cut, so to speak, are we then to blame God?? Because, it does seem that you are saying the man's feelings are the guide and that maybe God ought to just override that. Do you see how upside down that is? Because if that is right, man, God owes me. Because I have had all kinds of feelings that I thought were from God, did not pan out, and left me discontent. I know you know better than that.

Speak up. What specifically do you think ought to be done. Lay it out.

[dawgs10]

First of all, I have said many times that age should not be the guide.....Which goes both ways. I specifically mean that if we want to retain young talent there must be something for them. In many cases strong churchs are being held hostage by people that should have been retired long ago. Not one time did I say any one should leave...As far as the leaders of an organizations supporting and that being confirmation, i suppose thats true unless those leaders are protecting their own jobs and that happens. I would say all denoms. should look at the average age of their leaders and ask why? Why should someone be elderly to be in major leadership positions in those organizations?

What IS your view? Just turn over the keys to the kids? I know you don't mean THAT, but what specifically DO you mean? Let 40 year olds take over all leadership? What is this? Logan's Run? (You must be 45 or older to get that. )

I am not trying to be smart alecky. But, you have not made your point. You said if a man feels led by God to pastor a church of 150 but is deemed to young, maybe he should leave. Well, no. First, if a man is led by God to do anything with the body, others in the body will confirm it. If a man feels led, but no one else does, it will be exceptional for him to have gotten that feeling right as a matter of discernment. Second, if he feels led but does not make the cut, so to speak, are we then to blame God?? Because, it does seem that you are saying the man's feelings are the guide and that maybe God ought to just override that. Do you see how upside down that is? Because if that is right, man, God owes me. Because I have had all kinds of feelings that I thought were from God, did not pan out, and left me discontent. I know you know better than that.

Speak up. What specifically do you think ought to be done. Lay it out.

[TW]

First of all, I have said many times that age should not be the guide.....Which goes both ways. I specifically mean that if we want to retain young talent there must be something for them. In many cases strong churchs are being held hostage by people that should have been retired long ago. Not one time did I say any one should leave...As far as the leaders of an organizations supporting and that being confirmation, i suppose thats true unless those leaders are protecting their own jobs and that happens. I would say all denoms. should look at the average age of their leaders and ask why? Why should someone be elderly to be in major leadership positions in those organizations?

dawgs10, consider this. Would you take a young graduate from West Point and promote him to a rank of Four Star General? I doubt it. Why? Because he lacks the experience necessary for the job.

Young Army Officers and young Ministers have this in common. They need their time in the trenches to season them for the challenges that come with promotion.