Timing seems to be everything

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dolfan
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Timing seems to be everything

Postby dolfan » May 6th, 2013, 10:33 am

It is interesting that one topic has dominated the thread on the leadership transition within COGOP. And, I've heard it locally, not merely on here. Would COGOP and COG merge? Is now the time? Etc.

First, I have wondered why now seems to be the time to so actively imagine such a thing. Is the COGOP membership so disappointed or ready for a change of almost any kind that this is the kind of thing that occupies the mind when a General Overseer decides it is time for him to leave that position?

And, I also wonder if the influence of the internet isn't aggravating that inside people. What I mean is that you can browse around online and in seconds find a whole host of news and tweets and headlines and blogs and all of that where larger Pentecostal denominations or even large, recognized independent congregations are mentioned. Many time and again. And, you tend not to read about the COGOP or COGOP congregations in a great number of those mentions. So, it makes me ask if there is not a growing sort of -- and I don't like the word as it may be over the top -- contempt inside the COGOP about the COGOP. One that is unjustified if the measure of thinking "this is where I belong and this is on mission with God" is made by looking at activity through online lenses.

I had pretty much blown the discussion off until I read Rascal's post on Monday afternoon. It made me go "hmmmm". And, that is the prevailing age of current leadership combined with a perceived "ho-hum" among the COGOP membership about differences between the two groups. Rascal doesn't offer to speak for everyone COGOP in the post, but perception is reality to a lot of people. I have heard local folks I know say very similar sounding kinds of concerns.

What drew me to post here about it was Rascal's hypothesis that COGOP could go bankrupt. Now, look, I know what happened years ago and how money got lost or squandered or whatever. And, I know that was a big deal. But, how can the central body become insolvent and thereby dissolve the fellowship? That seems to be a really thin fellowship. I just don't believe that, y'all. I just don't believe that, even if there was actual fiscal insolvency in Cleveland, TN by the Int'l Office of the COGOP, that it would spell the end of COGOP as its own movement. If that's the case, either money is hindering the movement and the movement goes forth or the movement is not a movement at all. Does that even seem possible??

And, why does the resignation of Randy Howard seem to be the lynchpin that causes this house of cards (supposed!) to take such a fall? I mean, if HE is seen as the reason why COGOP is a functioning movement to such an extent that his going to the house would cause the utility company to put a little red seal on the meter box at headquarters, I can understand that he'd be under an immense pressure. But, I just don't believe that. I don't believe that COGOP is in the dire circumstances that I'm hearing. I don't believe that COGOP must find its future identity inside the COG.

That's an old school way of seeing what is happening in this time we live in. It is as if so many people see this as the viability of an organization when it is about the life of a move of God in the world. The organization has been adjusting itself to the flexibility needed to move with God, has it not?? If that's so, why be dour about it now? We're nearer the time than when we first believed!

No. I think this is opportunity, here. I really do. This is a time for every local church and pastor and member to get on your faces before God and ask for Him to awaken you to the immediate world around you and to go to it with the gospel of Jesus. Man, this is not time to throw in chips or towels or whatever else gets tossed in.

The Church of God of Prophecy has always been in love with Jesus. Now, pardon me for going way back, here. But, A.J. Tomlinson -- and I don't have to apologize for using him here, there's nothing wrong with A.J. Tomlinson -- loved Jesus Christ. Those men and women in the hills with him loved Jesus.

I had a formative moment at TC when, not being a Christian but a couple of years or so, I sat in a class in my first semester and heard James Wallace passionately describe the centrality of Jesus to everything and everyone in the COGOP. It cemented something in me that never really left. And, although I left the COGOP, what he said about the love for Jesus that is rooted in the church is the way I view it. I highly regard the high regard that COGOP has for the person of Jesus Christ.

So, what is it now? I believe that she still loves her Lord. I believe that the COGOP is still a Jesus-loving, Jesus-centered movement of God in the world. I wouldn't give up on Him and stop short.

This reminds me of that triangle diagram thing that Billy Murray did at the General Assembly in, what, 1990? 1991? The White Wing Messenger took all kinds of photos of it and essentially reprinted the illustration. That has never left me, either. And, I think it bears reviewing. I won't do it, but someone could.

The upshot of it, though, was this: That if people try and come together in fellowship for any reason, cause, or motive short of obedience to and identity in Christ Jesus, they are coming up short. They are stopping short.

Look, I'm in the COG now. Our local church is not all wrapped up in what is happening across the organization. Conventions and assemblies are pretty much non-events that barely get mentioned. When they do, people act like, "Assembly? Hm. What's that again?" We do what they say for us to do, but it is pretty much business operations and does not define who our church is at all. So, it is hard for me to judge what the real temperature of things in the COG is outside of my local church. I think we are probably kind of unusual, but I'm not sure. :) And, not sure if that's good or not good. I never stop to ask.

But, what I do know is this. COGOP is local and global. Its history of that is vital to who it is now. That is special, I think. And, boy I know this doesn't make a lot of people happy, but I have a hard time thinking that God has brought this million plus people from outside of the US into the COGOP in very recent years just to sit here and watch it evaporate over some transient notion such as money. The fellowship of the COGOP is and always has been stronger than that, more about eternity than that.

Now, I know I've rambled here. But, y'all. Don't stop now. Don't think that now's the time to roll up the floors and hang out someone else's label on your front door. There may come a time when that IS the thing to do. But, this ain't that. Not by a long shot.
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Not a man

Postby scooter » May 6th, 2013, 12:42 pm

I don't think that this has anything to do with anything other than a man trying to save his marraige.

I see the CoGop as having left off iconism years ago. In that I mean bugs bunny could be the overseer and locally it wouldn't make a difference.

99% of the local people in my church would have no idea who the GO is.

The CoG's system shows that changing the GO doesn't affect the day to day mission.

I'm interested in who would start a bankrupt rumor again.
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Re: Not a man

Postby Pastor Gary » May 6th, 2013, 12:46 pm

scooter wrote:I don't think that this has anything to do with anything other than a man trying to save his marraige.


Precisely.

scooter wrote:I see the CoGop as having left off iconism years ago. In that I mean bugs bunny could be the overseer and locally it wouldn't make a difference.

99% of the local people in my church would have no idea who the GO is.

The CoG's system shows that changing the GO doesn't affect the day to day mission.


Precisely.

scooter wrote:I'm interested in who would start a bankrupt rumor again.


An anonymous person with a login and user name on an internet forum, providing zero facts.
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Postby Billy n NC » May 6th, 2013, 11:58 pm

Yeah what Scooter and Pastor G said..
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Postby dawgs10 » May 7th, 2013, 4:38 am

I don't see any one single person as a final straw or the glue that holds COGOP together. As a minister in COGOP I would not support a merger with any one. I maybe wrong, but I thing COGOP has its own ministry that God has given us. If COGOP has a weakness or a challenge I would think it would be a large drop off of leadership from say 60 to 30...Not a huge group of middle age people in our organization. I think this is a very good time to open up north american leadership to younger ministers just like what is going on within COGOP out side of north america. A leader in COGOP once told me this....If a man is not ready to be an overseer by 35-40 he never will be. To bad he is not in north america....

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Postby paul » May 7th, 2013, 6:28 am

dawgs10 wrote:I don't see any one single person as a final straw or the glue that holds COGOP together. As a minister in COGOP I would not support a merger with any one. I maybe wrong, but I thing COGOP has its own ministry that God has given us. If COGOP has a weakness or a challenge I would think it would be a large drop off of leadership from say 60 to 30...Not a huge group of middle age people in our organization. I think this is a very good time to open up north american leadership to younger ministers just like what is going on within COGOP out side of north america. A leader in COGOP once told me this....If a man is not ready to be an overseer by 35-40 he never will be. To bad he is not in north america....


Age has little to do with it. And what is the bar that says he is ready ? I know of some men that were outstanding pastors and were promoted to S.O. and were miserable failures.
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Wrong

Postby Pastor Gary » May 7th, 2013, 10:49 am

dawgs10 wrote:A leader in COGOP once told me this....If a man is not ready to be an overseer by 35-40 he never will be. To bad he is not in north america....


That leader who said that? Totally wrong.
"God is excited to show you mercy. He rises to give you His compassion." (Isaiah 30:18)



"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous;
you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)

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Re: Wrong

Postby dawgs10 » May 8th, 2013, 4:59 am

Pastor Gary wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:A leader in COGOP once told me this....If a man is not ready to be an overseer by 35-40 he never will be. To bad he is not in north america....


That leader who said that? Totally wrong.


why is that "totally wrong" Gary?

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Re: Wrong

Postby Pastor Gary » May 8th, 2013, 8:11 am

dawgs10 wrote:
Pastor Gary wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:A leader in COGOP once told me this....If a man is not ready to be an overseer by 35-40 he never will be. To bad he is not in north america....


That leader who said that? Totally wrong.


why is that "totally wrong" Gary?


In my studies of leadership one thing has become apparent: leadership has no gender, race, ethnicity or AGE. Some people have incredible leadership ability at age 20 and others couldn't lead a red wagon until they hit mid-life. The classic story of this is Col. Harlan Sanders, creator of Kentucky Fried Chicken... "In 1940, when he was fifty years old, he invented his now-famous recipe for fried chicken, with its eleven secret herbs and spices. In 1955, when Sanders was sixty-five, business took a downturn and he used the proceeds from his first Social Security check to start the process of franchising his fried-chicken concept, turning his small fried-chicken restaurant into a national fast-food phenomenon."
"God is excited to show you mercy. He rises to give you His compassion." (Isaiah 30:18)



"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous;
you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)

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Postby dawgs10 » May 8th, 2013, 8:54 am

My experience in other fields tell me the church is not tapping into younger resources like the rest of the world...we are behind in that area. I agree with you to a point..

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Yep

Postby Pastor Gary » May 8th, 2013, 9:01 am

dawgs10 wrote:My experience in other fields tell me the church is not tapping into younger resources like the rest of the world...we are behind in that area. I agree with you to a point..


Well, I will stand on my record on this one: I am doing everything I know how to do to release the young leaders, while not making the mistake of discarding all those with white hair. :wink:
"God is excited to show you mercy. He rises to give you His compassion." (Isaiah 30:18)



"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous;
you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)

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Re: Yep

Postby paul » May 8th, 2013, 9:17 am

Pastor Gary wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:My experience in other fields tell me the church is not tapping into younger resources like the rest of the world...we are behind in that area. I agree with you to a point..


Well, I will stand on my record on this one: I am doing everything I know how to do to release the young leaders, while not making the mistake of discarding all those with white hair. :wink:


PG, that was one of the things that drew me to ISOM. Several of the Lecutrers are older and have served in their particular field for years. So instead of simply teaching a youonger generation, they are imparting their wisdom, success and failures.

I have used the Col. many times. Currently I am mentoring six young men in their mid 20's here in our local church. I also just started a school here as well. We have begun to focus on the US to raise up strong local churches that are geared to planting strong churches that plant churches and are mission minded.

My vision is to have school to where I can bring in older retired ministers who are strong and have a mantle to pass on to the yoounger generation. To provide their airface and accomidations and allow them to be of value in their golden years.
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Re: Yep

Postby dawgs10 » May 8th, 2013, 10:00 am

I would not want you to discard anyone. PG, from what I hear, your style and what you are doing in your state is cutting edge in COGOP. You are not a leader that would fit in the category of those that are overlooking the younger generation. And I also understand that there is much to be learned by experienced ministers. But I still think we need to open leadership positions to the younger generation as well as the older. After all, it's not age that matters.

Pastor Gary wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:My experience in other fields tell me the church is not tapping into younger resources like the rest of the world...we are behind in that area. I agree with you to a point..


Well, I will stand on my record on this one: I am doing everything I know how to do to release the young leaders, while not making the mistake of discarding all those with white hair. :wink:

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Postby Full Quiver » May 9th, 2013, 5:55 am

I suppose, according to that overseer, that if a man were saved in his late 40's and became a disciple of Christ then he would never be an overseer/pastor. They are one in the same Biblically.
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Postby dawgs10 » May 9th, 2013, 6:39 am

not at all....we are speaking in specific context...we can always find individual exceptions.


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