Citizenship

[Pastor Gary]

I am pretty politically conservative. As a vietnam vet, my patriotism credentials are firmly established. Having said that, I am starting to see something likely to make me hugely unpopular; I am starting to see the hand of God in all of this immigration mess. Here's a question I have been wrestling with, which I now dump in YOUR lap:

Where is your true citizenship? If you suddenly saw that God was flooding 3rd world people across the U.S. borders -- with or without a legal right to enter -- to extend His purposes of world evangelism, would you sacrifice your nationalism for the greater good of the gospel?

If not, we are all worshipping a red, white and blue golden calf.

[Pastor Bill]

I have wondered this myself at times, and having worked some with hispanic churches who have shared our buildings how a church should respond to this is up in the air in many ways.

Personally I don't ask for citizenship records in order to minster to someone, but I also believe that as Christians we are to follow the laws of the land as long as they are not conflicting with the laws of God, and would council those that are here illegally that they need to consider that as a part of their witness as a Christian.

[Phil Hoover]

in the fact that we are allowing GENERATIONS of people to believe that the "laws of the United States" mean nothing to them....these same laws can be broken at will, and without consequences of any kind.

Every single person who is allowed to come here illegally, and then protected once they arrive are getting that message--whether it was intended or not.

Our laws are not inhumane....

We are perpetuating a culture that has no idea what it means to be a "respectful, law-abiding citizen" of these United States.

Sorta like the theme of the Book of Judges, "Every person did what was right in their own eyes."

A sad commentary, indeed.

[Pastor Gary]

And the question -- which remains unanswered -- is:

"Where is your true citizenship? If you suddenly saw that God was flooding 3rd world people across the U.S. borders -- with or without a legal right to enter -- to extend His purposes of world evangelism, would you sacrifice your nationalism for the greater good of the gospel?"

[Phil Hoover]

the LORD would have to make it abundantly clear to me that it was indeed HIMSELF flooding the borders with people, illegally....

Right now, this fallen, tainted, stained human isn't convinced...

[dolfan]

I admit to being torn about it. And, I admit that I am increasingly disconcerned with the policies of government, as if you didn't know that already.

What I am learning -- or I'm losing my mind, you be the judge -- is that the values of society and of government are not my values AT ALL. I am becoming more aware of values I hold as an American and not as a Christian. And, those values always fail the test of biblical Christianity so far as I am able to discern. By "fail" I mean they either contradict the faith somehow or simply lie outside of it.

You might say, "But, America was founded on Christian principles." I won't argue the point because it doesn't matter. No nation will survive, ultimately, except the kingdom of God. America is not a part of that kingdom in any sense of the word. America does not more approximate that kingdom than any other nation, and to the extent we point to freedom of religion as evidence that it does so I would simply respond that freedom of religion is not a hallmark of a faith that stands on the premise that he who does not believe (meaning following and obeying) Christ is already condemned. To the extent we would point to the abundance of missionary work that has happened from this country, I would respond that the Holy Spirit deserves the credit over the Constitution, and that God does not like to share the credit.

Does that mean I hate our nation? Running the risk of sounding like an ingrate, I say anyone who does not hate his nation (i.e., as in "does not hate father, mother, sister, brother, etc., cannot be my disciple", Luke 14:26) and at the same time exchanges that national tie for a bond to the cross is no disciple. So, yes, in a very real sense, we have to hate our nation. Sounds crass, unthankful and unpatriotic. That is the very kind of conflict that we should think is normal, and we should commit to the side of it that considers the glory of Christ alone.

What it doesn't mean, though, is that I will take pot shots at policies of our nation. I have done just that, though. I'm to the point where I view all of our policies as evil since none of them are directed by God. They may manifest in ways that actually aid people, but they are evil nonetheless for scores of reasons. By way of not just making that assertion off the cuff, I would point to the fact that all policies are in place to maintain power bases. In one way or another, every policy is designed to preserve power and control in the hands of those who exercise it. Even the most magnanimous gestures of ending slavery and the Civil Rights Act legislation have been cynically commandeered through to law by those who stand to gain the most from doing so.

By contrast, we cannot point to one such act of God. If we were inclined to counter by pointing to the fact that everything is done for His glory in heaven and earth, we only point up more the truth that anything done outside of His "nation" is idolatry and anti-Christ. Rev. 4:11.

So, to get back to the question Pastor Gary posed: Yes. I think the only Christ-like response to their being here is to help them, to demonstrate and preach the gospel of Jesus to them, and to stay clear of any action that would jeopardize their presence here.

[dawgs10]

yes i would. simple answer to a simple question.

[Pastor Gary]

yes i would. simple answer to a simple question.

Yeah. Me too.

[Full Quiver]

My Earthly citizenship is in Tennessee and then the USA. My spiritual citizenship is in the kingdom of God. In pleasing God I am to submit to the laws, ordinances, and kings that HE has set before me here on Earth. Refugees and 3rd world citizens whom profess Christ have that same rule.

America already allows legal migration for the persecuted and such. Crossing the border to find work, healthcare, and entitlements is not due to spiritual persecution. Last I checked Mexico allowed Christian worship. I know you didn't reference Mexico specifically but that is the nation of origin for most illegal immigrants.

[darylscook]

I am pretty politically conservative. As a vietnam vet, my patriotism credentials are firmly established. Having said that, I am starting to see something likely to make me hugely unpopular; I am starting to see the hand of God in all of this immigration mess. Here's a question I have been wrestling with, which I now dump in YOUR lap:

Where is your true citizenship? If you suddenly saw that God was flooding 3rd world people across the U.S. borders -- with or without a legal right to enter -- to extend His purposes of world evangelism, would you sacrifice your nationalism for the greater good of the gospel?

If not, we are all worshipping a red, white and blue golden calf.

I would witness to them, preach to them, love them, extend hospitality to them, and help them anyway that I could personally. If the law came looking for them, I would not fight the law, I would turn them over to the law for breaking it. I would then pray for them that God would use them where they can be legally.

Pastor Daryl

[dolfan]

My Earthly citizenship is in Tennessee and then the USA. My spiritual citizenship is in the kingdom of God. In pleasing God I am to submit to the laws, ordinances, and kings that HE has set before me here on Earth. Refugees and 3rd world citizens whom profess Christ have that same rule.

Which is the greater law: to reach out to the very last, least and lost in love and truth and to help them remain free, or to uphold the law of the land? I can tell you which one I personally think is greater. There is no authority on earth outside the church that has any power to bind me to support laws which would take those from my reach whom God brings into it.

Your answer also presumes that God who sets up kingdoms and brings them down does not also bring immigrants across borders in violation of laws. If God has the power and authority to send ministers into a nation against the laws of that nation for the purpose of taking the Word to them (I'm sure you agree He does do that), does He not also have the same power and authority to bring immigrants into a nation against the laws of that nation for the purpose of bringing them to the Word?

America already allows legal migration for the persecuted and such.

Let's make sure we tell God that He need not bother? Or, should He just take a number?

Crossing the border to find work, healthcare, and entitlements is not due to spiritual persecution.

In Philemon, Paul received Onesimus (Philemon's runaway slave), converted him to the faith, and sought Philemon's forgiveness of Onesimus as Paul sent Onesimus back to Philemon with Tychicus. Onesimus was an escapee, a refugee, whose "law" would've required him to remain put with Philemon, who by no known measure was cruel. Paul expected Philemon to treat Onesimus with regard, with forgiveness and whole love and acceptance. Onesimus had proved himself able and helpful to even Paul. There's no evidence that Philemon was brutal to Onesimus or rejected Paul's plea. There's no evidence that Onesimus fled Philemon due to cruelty or extreme poverty. Had he done so, do you think Paul would've been less welcoming? Or, do you find somewhere in this story that Onesimus wa being "spiritually persecuted"? I don't see that, and I don't see where Paul thinks it matters.

[soulsearcher]

"... would you sacrifice your nationalism for the greater good of the gospel?"

The question basically breaks down to that. How could I possibly say, "No"? I must stay true to my truest citizenship.

[Full Quiver]

Dolfan, the greater law is to love them as God does. That's not what we were asked nor what I responded to. I know a guy that says that God sent him to America. I worked with him in my younger days in ministry. He didn't come across the border looking for work or entitlements in fact he couldn't read English and barely spoke it and he wasn't even on food stamps. Most immigrants are not coming here because God said to.

Darryl, you say you would not fight the law and would turn them over to the law but you also say you would essentially befriend them, minister to them, etc. How far does that go before you yourself are aiding and abetting a criminal?

[dolfan]

Dolfan, the greater law is to love them as God does. That's not what we were asked nor what I responded to. I know a guy that says that God sent him to America. I worked with him in my younger days in ministry. He didn't come across the border looking for work or entitlements in fact he couldn't read English and barely spoke it and he wasn't even on food stamps. Most immigrants are not coming here because God said to.

I think that is exactly what we're being asked. Your example of your former friend's obedience is great, but beside the point. Think of this: the nation with the greatest amount of religious liberty on the planet being invaded by the poorest people on the continent, and aliens at that. What situation have we ever seen that is more like the very situation Jesus stated that He came to address -- binding up the poor, brokenhearted and bruised?? A bruised reed, the scripture says, He will not break. Will we? Really?

[Full Quiver]

OK, bring all the poor, sick, etc. That won't make America a 3rd world nation. How about the poor you will always have with you> Jesus said that and it is and always will be true. American can't solve poverty among it's own let alone among the billions among the Earth not to mention our hungry are still hungry tonight.