Kaufman Baby Death

Full Quiver · Postby **Full Quiver** » July 22nd, 2009, 11:51 am

In the News

Again in the News

And a 3rd time

EagerBeaver · Postby **EagerBeaver** » July 22nd, 2009, 9:46 pm

I don't know if this is the same guy but I remember in the late '90s we had a gentleman by the name of Sam Kaufman in the Washington State COGOP. He attended the Yakima church under the pastorate of Leon Flemmer (who, incidentally, surrendered his COGOP ministers' license to go TCOG within the last year or so). I remember him working a Junior Camp that my younger brother attended, I think my brother was in his cabin.

Like I said, not sure if it's the same guy but very eerie.

Full Quiver · Postby **Full Quiver** » July 23rd, 2009, 4:39 am

Probably the same guy Chris. He is from that part of the country. He was in California when I first come to know him a few years back.

A2JGirl · Postby **A2JGirl** » July 23rd, 2009, 7:49 am

It is the same guy, Chris. I'm pretty sure. Leon Flemmer is Adolf Flemmer's son, right? Sam and I have talked together about him as we had a mutual friend who sat under the elder Flemmer.

I love Sam and Tammy and their family. I feel awful for them. I feel terrible that they are taking the fall for this by themselves. When you have a General Overseer and wife who is teaching you that if you have faith in God, you won't seek help from doctors, and you really love the Lord and want to please him, what are you gonna do? Especially when that GO's wife is present at the birth. It's just so sad.

dolfan · Postby **dolfan** » July 23rd, 2009, 9:44 am

Well, I'm completely on the record here on my thoughts about what happened. So, no need to go down that road again.

I actually think, though, that the TCOG leadership needs to respond right now to this article. Also, COG probably needs to make sure it says something so they don't get linked in with TCOG on it --- the article makes it appear that the Church of God teaches people to reject medical care. I don't even think TCOG teaches that officially. That's why TCOG should come out right now and unequivocally reject the characterization that their "group" in any way "denies medical help from man." If not, it is a grossly irresponsible inaction that taints all of TCOG with this insanity. They don't deserve that.

one love · Postby **one love** » July 23rd, 2009, 10:20 am

dolfan wrote:Well, I'm completely on the record here on my thoughts about what happened. So, no need to go down that road again.

I actually think, though, that the TCOG leadership needs to respond right now to this article. Also, COG probably needs to make sure it says something so they don't get linked in with TCOG on it --- the article makes it appear that the Church of God teaches people to reject medical care. I don't even think TCOG teaches that officially. That's why TCOG should come out right now and unequivocally reject the characterization that their "group" in any way "denies medical help from man." If not, it is a grossly irresponsible inaction that taints all of TCOG with this insanity. They don't deserve that.

Yeah they did not tell the truth exactly. TCOG does not feel it is wrong to go to the doctor and as was posted before there is a official assembly ruling that states it is not wrong/ sin to go to the doctor.

I do understand the point you are making Dolfan

free · Postby **free** » July 23rd, 2009, 10:28 am

I know a lot of TCOG folks that go to the doctor. Was there ever a question in their organization that it was sinful to go to the doctor? Are there some of their members who refuse to go to the eye doctor or refuse to wear glasses? If they'll go to an eye doctor why not go to a medical doctor? I never understood that (not just for their group).

one love · Postby **one love** » July 23rd, 2009, 1:25 pm

free wrote:I know a lot of TCOG folks that go to the doctor. Was there ever a question in their organization that it was sinful to go to the doctor? Are there some of their members who refuse to go to the eye doctor or refuse to wear glasses? If they'll go to an eye doctor why not go to a medical doctor? I never understood that (not just for their group).

No most TCOG people have no issue with going to doctors. I obviously go to a neurologist every few months because of my neck/back issues.
There are a few that do not want to go to a doctor for anything and just depend on God for all there needs.
Few views that exist:

1. That if you don't have the faith go to a doc.
2. Go to a doc. get check ups etc. because God also can work through doctors.
3. Then the few that feel you should not go at all, for the most part it is just a few that have their own personal convictions.

It is not supposed to be preached or stated that we "TCOG" feel it is wrong to go to a Doctor. I Believe God can heal, if one needs to take medicine when God heals you, then you can stop taking that medicine. I do not feel that God some how punishes you for taking medicine.

Glasses are medical care. Dentist are medical care. Midwifes are a sort of medical care. The only difference from a "midwife" and a "doctor" is one has MORE knowledge then the other.

I have no problem with anyone that stands on faith alone and also has there own personal convictions. I do on the other hand do not like personal convictions preached to others. Well I hope this is received in the love that it was written. I am not the best at expressing myself online.

Jude 2