WHat do you believe about the gifts of the Spirit?

[Revival Theology]

We often hear people say, "You know, that person has the call of God on his life, and the gifts and callings of God are without repentance; therefore, they can never really get away from that calling." However, in context, what is Paul actually speaking of when he says the gifts and callings of God are without repentance?

While I would agree that the gifts of God, once walked in, are (usually) not too hard to walk in again even if left dormant for years, I am uncomfortable with the idea put forth by many based on this verse that the gifts of the Spirit are somehow permanent endowments.

[Pastor Gary]

...I am uncomfortable with the idea put forth by many based on this verse that the gifts of the Spirit are somehow permanent endowments.

Why?

The very word "GIFT" carries the implication of permanent endowment, doesn't it? Otherwise, we should call them the "loans" of the Spirit.

[Pastor Bill]

I guess I am just a little uncomfortable with the way so many things are lumped together and all called "gifts". I see many of the things you have named more as callings or abilities, and although these may be very similar, I think the subtle difference is the ownership and manifestation that we are debating here.

Gifts -- Charisma -- simply means "Divine grace." I don't make the same distinction you do, perhaps in part because of this passage...
Exodus 31:1-5 -- "Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: "See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze, in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship."

God took what was perhaps the natural skill or ability of Bezalel and added his anointing, and then Bezalel did his work with supernaturally exceptional skill. Was that a spiritual gift?

No actually I wouldn't call that a gift, but more of an annointing. I make that distinction to simplify things from the classifications of gifts you mentioned earlier. Much of the classifications you use I just wouldn't call gifts, but in many ways I think we are saying some of the same things. the things listed here would be abilities that Bezalel possessed and God annointed, therefore something he could develop and control on his own. This would be something that He "possessed" or "owned" These same principles would not neccesarily apply to the gifts exampled in I Corinthians 12. Even though some some are similar (and even named the same) I believe there is wisdom and knowledge that we possess and God uses, but there is also that is given by God for a specific time and place, and this would be the "gift" I guess I make more of a distinction between what you refer to as "Manifestation" gifts and the others by not refering to them as gifts, but instead as callings or abilities.

Would you agree that we do not own, or control the manifestation gifts?

[Crystal]

Gary wrote:

Hmmmmmmm.... how can we always tell? Noah worked on a boat for an awfully long time with no converts and not even any rain. During those years, his ministry looked pretty unfruitful to human eyes.

Look at the countless people who have musical gifts that use their talents for worldly gain. Their efforts may move you and give them fame, but without commiting their gift to God their is no fruit.


Gary wrote:

God anointed a donkey to speak -- no prayer or study; if it is an anointing, it comes from the one doing he anointing and not from any effort of ours. In fact, I find the anointing is most evident in my ministry at the times when I have had too little time to pray and study! God comes in and extraordinarily blesses my pathetic lack and more than makes up the difference... and He does it in ways that prevent me from taking credit.

Ok, you got me there. I have certainly walked before a group as nothing more than a willing vessel, and God has blessed. However, I have seen people, who felt called into the ministry, but purposely did not study or plan so that the Holy Ghost could lead their words--it comes off as rambled and unanointed. After you have studied, planned and given yourself completly to God, then God uses the gifts for his glory.

My point is without the anointing God given gifts and callings become meaningless. By gifts here I am referring to talents or abilities, not gifts of the spirit.
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[Pastor Bill]

...I am uncomfortable with the idea put forth by many based on this verse that the gifts of the Spirit are somehow permanent endowments.

Why?

The very word "GIFT" carries the implication of permanent endowment, doesn't it? Otherwise, we should call them the "loans" of the Spirit.

I would understand this to be the results were the gift, not the power to bring about the results on your own whenever you want.

[Pastor Bill]

My point is without the anointing God given gifts and callings become meaningless. By gifts here I am referring to talents or abilities, not gifts of the spirit.

Do you feel that gifts of the spirit would operate in the same way?

[Kevin]

Could the tie that binds be the annointing?
While callings and gifts are given from God, to be annointed requires something on our part--prayer, fasting, study, obedience.

Oh, man. I had not even read this post and I used the exact same words last night in bible study for what the Lord requires of us. Cool.

[Revival Theology]

...I am uncomfortable with the idea put forth by many based on this verse that the gifts of the Spirit are somehow permanent endowments.

Why?

The very word "GIFT" carries the implication of permanent endowment, doesn't it? Otherwise, we should call them the "loans" of the Spirit.

Eternal life is a gift, the Holy Spirit himself is spoken of as a gift, and yet these are not unconditionally guaranteed to their recipients. I.e., a person may, through their own willful sin, forfeit a gift. It also seems a bit tenuous to base a theory on an English translation of charismata and pneumatika, "graces" and "spirituals."

It seems to me that the way it works is that these are workings/movings of the Holy Spirit in/through/with a person.

My 2c

[Pastor Gary]

Eternal life is a gift,... and yet... not unconditionally guaranteed to their recipients. I.e., a person may, through their own willful sin, forfeit a gift.

That, of course, has been greatly debated, hasn't it? My Calvinist friends argue that it is indeed an unconditional gift.

[Revival Theology]

Eternal life is a gift,... and yet... not unconditionally guaranteed to their recipients. I.e., a person may, through their own willful sin, forfeit a gift.

That, of course, has been greatly debated, hasn't it? My Calvinist friends argue that it is indeed an unconditional gift.

Yes, I realize Calvinists view it that way.

Eternal life would be eternal whether accepted or rejected. Eternal life is plainly stated in Scripture to be inseparable from an intimate union of faith with Jesus Christ. As 1 John says, "...life is in his Son."

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

[Mike Vande]

Could the tie that binds be the annointing?
While callings and gifts are given from God, to be annointed requires something on our part--prayer, fasting, study, obedience.

Oh, man. I had not even read this post and I used the exact same words last night in bible study for what the Lord requires of us. Cool.

I wonder how much prayer, fasting, study, and obedience the donkey God annointed to speak to Balaam accomplished prior to his annointing? And Paul, I am sure he was doing all the disciplines of a Godly man while he was murdering believers, and that must be why God annointed him. Then there was Peter, who was willing to give up the Gospel Jesus had given him for legalism while he was annointed and performing miracles as an apostle. And of course, let's not forget David, who was writing annointed scripture while he was neck deep in thre sins of murder and adultery...
Why is it that believers, particularly pentecostal and charismatic believers, want to make God's annointing into an earned wage instead of a grace gift? All that God requires to bestow His annointing seems to be someone or someone or something to annoint. At least, that is the thrust of scripture.
The disciplines are for OUR benefit, not God's. They are not coinage with which to purchase anything from God. Simon the magician thought he could buy the annointing with money and nearly got blasted out of this world for it. There is nothing much different about trying to earn the annointing by being "good" enough for it, so be careful what you teach, guys...
Vande

[Mike Vande]

Mike, if I thought I could judge as to whether or not posts on Jude 2 are "anointed," this last one of yours would be. You made my Saturday morning or perhaps I should say God did through you!

Give the glory to God, brah. If I say anything that cause Him to be praised, that's what makes my day...

[Barbara Marlow]

Someone spoke of "owning the gifts" Personally I think the Gifts own me.
I am very concious of the gifts that GOD has graciously allowed at times to be in my life. I think that I understand that I must walk the straight path, and allow nothing in my vessel that would stop the operation of the gift, when the Holy Spirit moves.

Some also spoke of "other" gifts, beside the 9 listed. In california, a minister told me that I "had the gift of helps" and that I should spend
time cultivating it. I came to Michigan and heard the same message. In my lifetime, I have never heard anyone else told that.

[Revival Theology]

Could the tie that binds be the annointing?
While callings and gifts are given from God, to be annointed requires something on our part--prayer, fasting, study, obedience.

Oh, man. I had not even read this post and I used the exact same words last night in bible study for what the Lord requires of us. Cool.

Mike said: I wonder how much prayer, fasting, study, and obedience the donkey God annointed to speak to Balaam accomplished prior to his annointing?

John replies: Surely the Balaam's donkey was not the norm; it seems tenuous at best to extrapolate a theory based on one incident where God seems to have in fact divinely interrupted Balaam's foolish quest.

Mike said: And Paul, I am sure he was doing all the disciplines of a Godly man while he was murdering believers, and that must be why God annointed him.

John replies: I think we can agree (with Scripture) that Paul did not have the anointing of the Spirit upon his life until he received it through the laying on of hands from Ananias.

Mike said: Then there was Peter, who was willing to give up the Gospel Jesus had given him for legalism while he was annointed and performing miracles as an apostle.

John replies: It seems that Peter was at least teachable, though of course not perfect in knowledge, when this incident occurred, and that the wisdom of the Spirit prevailed in the council of Acts 15.

Mike said: And of course, let's not forget David, who was writing annointed scripture while he was neck deep in thre sins of murder and adultery...

John replies: Ps. 51 was written after David repented and confessed.

Mike said: Why is it that believers, particularly pentecostal and charismatic believers, want to make God's annointing into an earned wage instead of a grace gift? All that God requires to bestow His annointing seems to be someone or someone or something to annoint. At least, that is the thrust of scripture.

John replies: I respectfully disagree. God's anointing comes upon repentance, faith, and obedience (e.g., Acts 2 : 38 ). So long as the renewed believer remains obedient, the anointing remains.

Mike said: The disciplines are for OUR benefit, not God's. They are not coinage with which to purchase anything from God. Simon the magician thought he could buy the annointing with money and nearly got blasted out of this world for it. There is nothing much different about trying to earn the annointing by being "good" enough for it, so be careful what you teach, guys...
Vande

John replies: While I would certainly agree that one can never earn anything from God, the conditions of divine blessing on our life (whether salvation or gifting) are always conditioned (but not based) by obedience.

[Mike Vande]

Surely the Balaam's donkey was not the norm; it seems tenuous at best to extrapolate a theory based on one incident where God seems to have in fact divinely interrupted Balaam's foolish quest.

Well, it does not seem at all tenuous to present that scripture as an example that God does what God will do, according to His own agenda and beyond the understanding, hopes, pet theologies and best guesses of men. And, if that is an exception, it begs the question "what other exceptions are there?"

John replies: I think we can agree (with Scripture) that Paul did not have the anointing of the Spirit upon his life until he received it through the laying on of hands from Ananias.

And I think we can also agree that Paul had done nothing to deserve the annointing of God between being struck blind and meeting Ananias, certainly no studying or much else besides askng "Who are you and what are you doing to me?". Paul deserved death, as everybody does, and God by His grace, selected him for service and equipped him by annointing him for it. It doesn't get much plainer than that.

John replies: It seems that Peter was at least teachable, though of course not perfect in knowledge, when this incident occurred, and that the wisdom of the Spirit prevailed in the council of Acts 15.

Yes, and all screwed up while STILL annointed and operating as an apostle; in spite of Peter's vacilation, lack of discernment and fear of the face of man, he was an apostle by the grace of God, just as Paul was...

John replies: Ps. 51 was written after David repented and confessed.

You have proof scripture on that? 51 sounds more like David is confessing and repenting as he writes it; present tense you know. And, that doesn't address the other Psalms of David; there is no proof text I know of that precludes the possibility that he wrote them after Bathsheba and before Nathan.

John replies: I respectfully disagree. God's anointing comes upon repentance, faith, and obedience (e.g., Acts 2 : 38 ). So long as the renewed believer remains obedient, the anointing remains.

AC 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Hmmm. This scripture does not support your statement at all, particularly the last part; there is no mention of maintaining the annointing in it. And if we were to try to extrapolate your statement out of it, it would seem that the annointing is conditioned upon baptism. Is that what you ar trying to say?

John replies: While I would certainly agree that one can never earn anything from God, the conditions of divine blessing on our life (whether salvation or gifting) are always conditioned (but not based) by obedience.

That may work as a hammer to beat the people of God into submission, but I don't see it in scripture, certainly not in the scripture you have presented here. And in this particular sentance, your second clause contradicts your first, so I'm not finding discernable veracity in your statements. You have made a few pronouncements without any real substantiation, you haven't proven anything. It takes much more than what you have presented to establish anything as fact. And so again I say, be careful what you teach, you may have cause to regret it later...

Vande