WHat do you believe about the gifts of the Spirit?

[Revival Theology]

To Mike: My point about Acts 2:38 was simply that the conditions of repentance and faith precede the giving of the Holy Spirit to a person. This same theme is supported throughout Scripture as being always true.

To Michael: Are you one of those guys who thinks you can sleep with prostitutes and still have the anointing? WELLLL GLOOORY!

About Jonah, Noah, and Caiphas prophesying: Surely no one is advocating using these guys' disobedience as an example for others to follow. (But perhaps I am assuming too much about you).

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (AV)

Romans 8:12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—13 for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. (NRSV)

Ezek. 18:20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.
21But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. 23Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? 24But when the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity and do the same abominable things that the wicked do, shall they live? None of the righteous deeds that they have done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which they are guilty and the sin they have committed, they shall die.
25Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair? 26When the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity, they shall die for it; for the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 27Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life. 28Because they considered and turned away from all the transgressions that they had committed, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 29Yet the house of Israel says, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” O house of Israel, are my ways unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair?
30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, all of you according to your ways, says the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions; otherwise iniquity will be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord GOD. Turn, then, and live. (NRSV)

Col. 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Heb. 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God. (Heb. 12:14)

[Revival Theology]

Hi Mike,

I thought I had answered your question sufficiently, but perhaps this excerpt from a conversation I had recently on another website will clarify my understanding of this issue:

A few questions for you:

1. Would you say then that at any time a person can “lose” their salvation?

2. If at any time we cease to be living in obedience to God, that is, living in sin, are we no longer saved?

John replies:

I do not use the term, "lose," as if salvation were a "thing" or a possession which could be inadvertently lost like a wallet. However, as the Bible seems abundantly clear about the possibility of a person turning from their faith in God and returning "as a dog returns to its vomit," I do believe a person can change their ultimate purpose in life from that of benevolence to selfishness and thus be headed to hell.

I find the analogy of salvation as a journey to be helpful. A person on a journey from Los Angeles to New York City, so long as she keeps on track will arrive at the final destination. However, so long as the person stops, detours, or even turns back from the goal, they are by definition not headed in the right direction, and unless and until they turn around (repent) and get back on with the journey, they shall not arrive at the final destination. But just because one may have temporarily gotten off track (say, somewhere in the Rocky Mountains), does not mean they are instantly back at the start of the journey. What is necessary is simple repentance in order for them to get back on track.

In other words, if a Christian sins, they must repent (turn, confess and forsake) that sin. If they do not, they are self-evidently not intent on following after holiness/being a disciple of Christ any longer. If any person, who has ever once truly followed Christ but has since turned back into a life where *they* are their Lord instead of Jesus, desires to come back to God, all that is necessary is repentance and faith, which is the same thing as returning to a relationship of loving discipleship to Christ.

Organized Christianity? I'm about as nondenominational and non-ecclesiastical as can be. Anyway, sorry you thought I was dancing around the subject. I admit I absolutely hate the implications that I see in the idea that a person can claim to walk in the Spirit and at the same time be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, which is what it seemed to me you were advocating. Paul said that if we walk in the Spirit, we would *not* fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I don't see why this is so hard to understand for some.

Again, sorry if I misconstrued your position.

[Brian]

Forgive me for butting in, but this is something that I have never understood. John, you said...

"I admit I absolutely hate the implications that I see in the idea that a person can claim to walk in the Spirit and at the same time be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh,.."


Why is it that our focus is always on what others may be doing in there lives? Its always that way. Your other posts in this thread indicate that you question others peoples lives if they are expousing spiritual gifts. WHY? Why is it that if someone seems to have the spiritual gift of healing or such that the first thing we do is point fingers at them? I mean isnt there fruits evident? I mean sure not in every case, but as a rule of sorts I have seen too many people put to all sorts of tests and mistrust just for the heck of it. I simply dont understand it. We are all accountable to God, and to Him alone. Why do we scrutinize our brethern so much? Does it make us feel better to continually examine someones life? Maybe its fear that we will be misled by someone? Maybe thats why we build these walls of mistrust for those around us.
I guess many have been let down by folks who they held so high,..but hey, dont hold people so high!! If we treat people like people and not "little gods" then maybe when (or I should say IF) they are week in the flesh and need to be lifted up we wouldnt be trying to pull them back down with "I told you so's , I knew they were not truly saved cause they were smokin' or drinkin' or sleepin' with women, or so on and so on."

Im not at all saying it cool to sin and live disobidiently but come one, lets be real!!

God bless

[Mike Vande]

None of the scriptures you quoted say anything about losing one's annointing. They say plenty about dying, but that is not the same thing.

A perfect example of this all is Samson. Fornication, drunkeness, willfulness, lousy attitude overall; I think you could say he lived according to the flesh without much fear of contradiction. Yet he performed miracles under the annointing of the Holy Spirit all the while. He only lost his strength when his hair was cut. And, when it grew back, lo and behold, his annointing came back! And, lest you claim it was because of repentance, whle there is no doubt he was sorry for what he had done, his last prayer was for God to let him die with all the Phillistines he was killing; in short he asked God to allow him to commit suicide. Not really a "fruit of the spirit" moment, wouldn't you agree? AND, let us not forget that God's purpose for anninting him in the first place (the destruction of the Phillistines)him was accomplished despite him; in death he killed more Phillistines than he ever did in life.

Would Samson have been better off if he had been a Godly man instead of a flesh-driven libertine? NO DOUBT! Did he continue to work miracles under the annointing of God even when he was in sin up to the roots of his braided hair? NO DOUBT! It is even arguable that he was more effective in doing what God wanted after his fall, which would mean that he was likely being disobedient all the time he was working miracles before.

If you want to bring it into the present day (or at least recent history), there is Jimmy Swaggert to consider; he was neck-deep in sin, yet when he preached the word and gave his altar calls, people still got saved. Unless you want to say those people didn't really get saved, you have to admit that his annointing as an evangelist was still intact.

Samson is not only an example that what you are saying is piffle, he is an example that while the annointing may be on a person, it is not evidence of anything except the annointing. The working of miracles, even genuine miracles from God, is not the exclusive province of exceptionally holy people who have somehow earned or maintained a gift from God by dint of their own effort. The annointing is dependant on God and HIS chosing, and you have not yet proven otherwise.
Ergo, you are refuted.

Vande

[Crystal]

My point is without the anointing God given gifts and callings become meaningless. By gifts here I am referring to talents or abilities, not gifts of the spirit.

Do you feel that gifts of the spirit would operate in the same way?

Without a commitment to God the gifts of the spirit are not an issue.

2 Tim. 2:21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I wonder how much prayer, fasting, study, and obedience the donkey God annointed to speak to Balaam accomplished prior to his annointing?

Certainly, God can use anything or anyone he chooses. I want to make myself available for his use.

1 Cor. 12:31. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

[Brenda]

The subject is... What do you think of the gifts of the Spirit?

The gifts of the spirit are set in the church by a Holy God. Every thing of God is Holy. He only uses Holy vessels. That are consecrated to him. Vessels have to be yielded to his purpose. As in 1 Cor. 14:32 says..
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. We can allow or not allow the spirit to work through us. But if we are where we should be we will want to hear from God and to be that vessel if he so desires to work through. When God has something to say to his people he uses another person. But that person has to be Holy for his Holy gifts to operate through them.

God can use other things as the donkey, to get his point across or to get his work done. But as his creation, where his spirit dwells in, he desires to use people.
I think of the scripture where Jesus was riding into Jerusalem on the colt and a whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that , if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
St. Luke 19:39,40
Even the stones reconize the creator. He will be praised.

[Revival Theology]

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Ergo, you are refuted.

As to conversions under Swaggart's preaching, yes, God can certainly use false prophets (those who practice lawlessness--Matt. 7:21-23) to accomplish his purposes. That doesn't mean the individual necessarily was anointed.

As to "worrying about how others live" it seems to me that the Bible is quite concerned with how people (especially leaders) live.

[Mike Vande]

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Ergo, you are refuted.

No, not until you prove that everyone annointed by the Spirit continuously and without fail walks inthe Spirit. I would really like to see you accomplish that...

As to conversions under Swaggart's preaching, yes, God can certainly use false prophets (those who practice lawlessness--Matt. 7:21-23) to accomplish his purposes. That doesn't mean the individual necessarily was anointed.

Nor does it mean he was not, anymore than the donkey who spoke to Balaam is proven to be a false prophet because he was a donkey. God uses what and whom He uses by His choice, for His purposes, and according to His agenda, human or not, sinner or saint, and they are annointed to carry out His purposes, whether they (or you) realize it.

As to "worrying about how others live" it seems to me that the Bible is quite concerned with how people (especially leaders) live.

Yes, but taht is another issue. You still haven't presented any proof from scripure that supports your thesis. Ergo, you remain refuted, whether you admit (or even recognize) it or not.

Vande

[Pastor Bill]

My point is without the anointing God given gifts and callings become meaningless. By gifts here I am referring to talents or abilities, not gifts of the spirit.

Do you feel that gifts of the spirit would operate in the same way?

Without a commitment to God the gifts of the spirit are not an issue.

2 Tim. 2:21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I agree, but the issue is that many believe and teach that once God has "given" a person a gift, then it becomes theirs to use at their will. Many churches are teaching it this way. I know that Abilities work in this way, God taught me to play piano (honestly I could play very little till one service God placed me at the piano, and I just started playing) If I were to turn from God, I would still posess this ability or skill, because I have learned it. I do not see the spiritual gifts in this way, just because God uses me to give out a word of prophecy, interpret a message in tongues, perform a miracle, or heal does not mean I possess that ability, but that God used me on that particular instance, maybe I will be blessed to be used in that gift again, maybe not, but it is not an ability or skill I can possess or control. Would you agree?

[Crystal]

My point is without the anointing God given gifts and callings become meaningless. By gifts here I am referring to talents or abilities, not gifts of the spirit.

Do you feel that gifts of the spirit would operate in the same way?

Without a commitment to God the gifts of the spirit are not an issue.

2 Tim. 2:21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I agree, but the issue is that many believe and teach that once God has "given" a person a gift, then it becomes theirs to use at their will. Many churches are teaching it this way. I know that Abilities work in this way, God taught me to play piano (honestly I could play very little till one service God placed me at the piano, and I just started playing) If I were to turn from God, I would still posess this ability or skill, because I have learned it. I do not see the spiritual gifts in this way, just because God uses me to give out a word of prophecy, interpret a message in tongues, perform a miracle, or heal does not mean I possess that ability, but that God used me on that particular instance, maybe I will be blessed to be used in that gift again, maybe not, but it is not an ability or skill I can possess or control. Would you agree?

I do agree. When one has an ability, it is their responsiblity to cultivate it and use it for God's glory, but they can choose to use it for any purpose they choose. A spiritual gift is given to a willing vessel for the edification of the church. God is not bound to use me today just because I was willing yesterday.

[Pastor Bill]

I do agree. When one has an ability, it is their responsiblity to cultivate it and use it for God's glory, but they can choose to use it for any purpose they choose. A spiritual gift is given to a willing vessel for the edification of the church. God is not bound to use me today just because I was willing yesterday.

Exactly, but unfortunatly some people look at spiritual gifts the same as they do abilities, and I don't see this as biblical. God doesn't make me a healer, but he may choose to work through me in that gift.

Now I know there is a big debate going on now about who God can use, but I must say if we want God to use us we should bring ourselves unto him seeking to be found worthy. This does not mean we will be perfect, nor does it mean our worthiness enables us to be used, because all our righteousness is as filthy rags, and God is not a respector of person, but we also cannot expect God to bless us or use us while we are rejecting him in our lives.

I know the Example of Jimmy Swaggart was brought up, and there are a couple of things to remember, one God's Word will not go out void, It wasn't Jimmy that was saving those people, but the Word that was being preached. Did God care enough to save those people despite Jimmy's life, I think we can all agree that yes he did. Was God blessing Jimmy, No look at his life, he was not happy, he had no joy, he put on a good face for the public, but that was it. It is important to remember that God didn't save those people for Jimmy, but for himself. God does require us to live right, but our salvation is not based on our works. Many came to Christ through that ministry not because of Jimmy's faith, but because of their faith, and God's mercy. God can use the talents of anyone in any condition for His purpose, but we as Christians need to strive to live holy and acceptable, not to gain our salvation, not to gain a greater annointing, but to please God.

[Brian]

Hi Pastor Bill, I would agree in part with what you have said. Its a given that one should seek after rightousness and be committed to Christ in order for the gifts of the Spirit even come onto play. I dont think thats what most are talking about though. Like with tongues and interpretation of tongues. I believe first off that there are "various kinds of tongues", and not just one single kind. I will admit that I am not 100% sure of what that means exactly, but I believe it.
Second, I believe that if a person has the ability to speak in tongues or interpret tongues then it is there ability. It is a gift that the Spirit has given to them and its theres. Why else would 1 Cor.14:28 say "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

This implies that an interpreter should be present or to keep silent. Now of course God COULD use any willing vessel to interprit His messages, but then WHY does the word tell the one speaking in tongues to "remain silent"?

1 Cor.14:1 says "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy."

This accually encourages believers to "seek after spiritual gifts". There is nothing wrong with desiring to speak with tongues or desiring to prophesy. But many would have you believe that isnt the case.

Does one have the ability to retain these gifts even if they walk away from God? I dont know...why would they want to? Why would they try to practice such? How would they be in a setting to use the gift of interpretation? Prophecy? Healing? That is why I said I have a problem with the question of evey detail of the believers life becaaue its just plain finger pointing and doubt because someone may be doing something someone else doesnt aprove of. anyway.....

God bless

[Pastor Bill]

Hi Pastor Bill, I would agree in part with what you have said. Its a given that one should seek after rightousness and be committed to Christ in order for the gifts of the Spirit even come onto play. I dont think thats what most are talking about though. Like with tongues and interpretation of tongues. I believe first off that there are "various kinds of tongues", and not just one single kind. I will admit that I am not 100% sure of what that means exactly, but I believe it.
Second, I believe that if a person has the ability to speak in tongues or interpret tongues then it is there ability. It is a gift that the Spirit has given to them and its theres. Why else would 1 Cor.14:28 say "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

I agree there are different kinds of tongues, and there is also a difference in praying in tongues, and speaking in tongues, and I think this is the difference. When a person received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is generally accepted by pentecostals that this will be accompanied by the sign of speaking in tongues, This speaking would be as the spirit gives the utterance, and is for a sign. This is generally considered praying in tongues in that it is not interpretted, nor do I feel it is meant to be, but is to as you quoted "speak(ing) to himself and to God". Another instance is When a message is given out in tongues, in this case it is a message from God to those present, and it will be interpretted. It is hard to describe the difference, but anyone who has been present for both is probably familiar with the differences. It is this second instance that I see as the gift refered to in I Corinthians 12

This implies that an interpreter should be present or to keep silent. Now of course God COULD use any willing vessel to interprit His messages, but then WHY does the word tell the one speaking in tongues to "remain silent"?

Many times people try to get ahead of God, people also confuse these two things lumping it all together. Just because you speak in tongues does not mean you should shout out for everyone to hear, if you are used to give out a message in tongues, God Generally takes care of making sure you are heard (In most cases I have seen the spirit press upon those that were present to the point that even in groups of thousands of people the room would fall silent)

1 Cor.14:1 says "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy."

This accually encourages believers to "seek after spiritual gifts". There is nothing wrong with desiring to speak with tongues or desiring to prophesy. But many would have you believe that isnt the case.

I agree with you here, we need to desire and seek to be used in the gifts, but I don't think this implies that we "keep" the gifts only that we seek for God to use us in them. God has used me in the gift of healing before, but that doesn't make me a healer, it doesn't imply that I will heal anyone in the future, nor does it imply that I have the ability to heal, only that in that instance God used me, next time it may be someone else. Will this stop me from seeking to be used the next time someone is in need, no, but it means that others should seek as well instead of looking to me as in "well Pastor Bill has the gift of healing, so he is the one to pray for you for this, I have a different gift so I'm not involved right now" I have seen people with this attitude, but If we are saved, God can use us. If we have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, then we have received all of it, how and when he uses us are up to him, not up to us or abilities we possess (God given or naturally aquired)

Does one have the ability to retain these gifts even if they walk away from God? I dont know...why would they want to? Why would they try to practice such? How would they be in a setting to use the gift of interpretation? Prophecy? Healing? That is why I said I have a problem with the question of evey detail of the believers life becaaue its just plain finger pointing and doubt because someone may be doing something someone else doesnt aprove of. anyway.....

God bless

I agree, I don't think this is an issue of whether a person is saved or not, or how sancified they are, but I would say that no they don't retain the gift in any circumstance. It is not their ability nor any part of them that does the work, it is the Holy Spirit doing the work, we are only vessels. If we feel we retain the power, then we are exhalting ourselves above. We do have an authority in Christ, but the Power of the Holy Ghost is not ours to wield, but His to move through us. I have a glass of pop sitting here, I poured it a little while ago, it is my pop, the glass is just containing it right now. That glass may be used to hold pop again, or it may not it. It doesn't supply the pop, it doesn't own the pop, it isn't even given the choice of what brand or flavor of pop, but it is used for my purpose. This is the same way we are used by the Spirit, we don't own the power, we do not supply the power, we do not choose when, where, or on whom it will be used, but as long as we are willing vessels, God's work will get done.[/quote]

[Mike Vande]

The problem I have with tongues is that it happens that a person will give forth a message in tongues and an interpretation will follow. Then the person will give forth another message in the exact same tongues and a completely different message will follow. By all the rules of linguistics, this makes no sense....Am I supposed to believe that the second interpretation, which is impossible from a linguistic standard, as being a correct interpretation of the message given in tongues even though it is completely different from the first and is linguistically impossible? And if not, why should I believe an interpretation of the same message given in so called "unknown tongues" when the tongues are the same but two interpretations from those tongues are completely different?

Mike, the principal behind believing that the same "tongue" or message in tongues can be interpreted different ways and still be vaild is in the difference between the word "interpretation" and the word "translation". The latter is an exact rendering of a statement from one language into an other, the former has a bit more wiggle room involved. It would seem that the linguistic structure of a message in tongues is less important than the God-inpired interpretation.
It is also instructive to me that nobody's "angelic language" is exactly the same as anybody else's; if the linguistic strictures involved in human language applied to the tongues of angels, there would need to be a tranlator present everytime they spoke to one another. But my guess is that they understand each other fine, because God is present and what is said is less important than what is meant and what is understood.
Having said all that, I have (as has everybody else who has attended a pentecostal/charismatic church for any length of time) seen abuses of tongues (and prophecy, and so on, etc) that have, in the minds of a lot of people, devalued the gifts to the point where speaking tongues and prophecy cannot be taken prima facie as genuine revelations from God. But then, that was really the case all along; every message is supposed to be examined by the prophets in a given church and evaluated as either genuine or spurious, which doesn't always happen. I think it is the failure of church leadership, who have abdicated responsibility in this area, out of fear of "quenching the spirit" and sometimes for fear of losing control of the congregation, have caused this devaluation of revelatory gifts, and in doing so have actually done the very thing they were afraid of, that is, quenching the Spirit
I have to believe in tongues, prophecy and all the other gifts as valid, ongoing, active gifts in the Church because I do not see a valid scriptural reason to believe they will cease before Jesus comes back. Further, I have seen the real thing in operation, and what I have seen is supported by scripture. But I know that there is a lot of flesh to deal with between now and then, and the church is falling on it's face in dealing with it.

Vande

[Kenya]

My thinking as to why tongues and interpretations are so abused is because they are so easy for anyone to fake. It's easy to blurt out "Ha la la mo, shandidiai, condalai ..." ---- "Yea, I say unto you, thou must repent ...." than it is to lay hands on someone who is deathly sick and watch him be healed instantly. People want to be spiritual and the easiest member to use to show off that spirituality is the tongue. I think 90% of it is carnal.

90%??? Those are big numbers - but I tend to agree with maybe 75%. And what about when someone is speaking "in tongues" and stops just for a second to open their eyes and see if anyone is watching and then resumes the "language". I couldn't count the number of times I have seen this happen in conventions and conferences.